Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

Mara and the Ritual Stone

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 16, 2015

  Hah, I doubt anything I have to say is worth waiting for Slayer, but thank you  Ok you're on - let's see of we can play a game of snap with the gods. I don't like our chances though, the numbers are off: 13 constellations to match 8+1 Divines...

  Hah, I doubt anything I have to say is worth waiting for Slayer, but thank you  Ok you're on - let's see of we can play a game of snap with the gods. I don't like our chances though, the numbers are off: 13 constellations to match 8+1 Divines...

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 16, 2015

  That's some excellent research Vaaljorn  I don't really have much to add to this to be honest except to say that it has been the consensus that The Serpent is made up of un-stars - like wandering black holes.

  Here are all the books added by Craglorn's Secrets, we can use them as reference.

  Are the Magna Ge actually the Celestials? I have not a clue, but I find it unlikely. The Ge were those who changed their minds about creation before it was completed. Even though there is (oog) evidence that Magnus and his stars are watching over Nirn and recording everything, there is no evidence they wish to return.

  Maybe the constellations are now separate entities in their own right, like the collection of holes in Oblivion have achieved a sentience over and above that of their makers?

  I find it more likely that what we think we know of these tears we call stars is probably wrong. After all, we are looking at this from a very conventional standpoint. The Redguards - to whom the constellations are very  important -  don't view the stars in quite so clear-cut terms. Maybe we need to see them through their eyes?

  Do you need some help with the it's the guardians duty to protect the lesser signs, our charges, against the destructive ways of the Serpent quote?

  That's some excellent research Vaaljorn  I don't really have much to add to this to be honest except to say that it has been the consensus that The Serpent is made up of un-stars - like wandering black holes.

  Here are all the books added by Craglorn's Secrets, we can use them as reference.

  Are the Magna Ge actually the Celestials? I have not a clue, but I find it unlikely. The Ge were those who changed their minds about creation before it was completed. Even though there is (oog) evidence that Magnus and his stars are watching over Nirn and recording everything, there is no evidence they wish to return.

  Maybe the constellations are now separate entities in their own right, like the collection of holes in Oblivion have achieved a sentience over and above that of their makers?

  I find it more likely that what we think we know of these tears we call stars is probably wrong. After all, we are looking at this from a very conventional standpoint. The Redguards - to whom the constellations are very  important -  don't view the stars in quite so clear-cut terms. Maybe we need to see them through their eyes?

  Do you need some help with the it's the guardians duty to protect the lesser signs, our charges, against the destructive ways of the Serpent quote?

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 16, 2015

  That video indeed brings up some interesting things, and I am surprised at how broadly this topic actually spans.

  It's insane, right? To answer what appears to be a simple question requires a surprisingly deep knowledge. Don't be upset if the answer isn't even possible - we are entering into this knowing that we are trying to force a connection that may not be there at all 

  Maybe The Ritual, that one constellation out of all the others, has a unique magic to connect it with the gods, as Vaal and Tom were arguing about earlier on in the discussion. If so, then we will probably reach a dead end an be left unsatisfied for we cannot test the theory until the next game.

  That video indeed brings up some interesting things, and I am surprised at how broadly this topic actually spans.

  It's insane, right? To answer what appears to be a simple question requires a surprisingly deep knowledge. Don't be upset if the answer isn't even possible - we are entering into this knowing that we are trying to force a connection that may not be there at all 

  Maybe The Ritual, that one constellation out of all the others, has a unique magic to connect it with the gods, as Vaal and Tom were arguing about earlier on in the discussion. If so, then we will probably reach a dead end an be left unsatisfied for we cannot test the theory until the next game.

• Vaaljørn

  

  Member
   

  April 16, 2015

  Thanks for linking to the books. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll get to reading.

  These "living" (for a lack of a better word) constellations are really messing with my head. Not only do they appear to have sentience, but they also can manipulate and corrupt the doomstones, which were made by the Nedes (according to the book I cited).

  As for the quote, I'm trying to figure out the interplay between the Serpent and the Guardians. What can they do to one another, other than what we've seen in ESO? How does it work. Why do the charges need protection (are they too weak to help themselves)? Alas, these questions might take us too far away fro the OP.

  Thanks for linking to the books. I'm off work tomorrow, so I'll get to reading.

  These "living" (for a lack of a better word) constellations are really messing with my head. Not only do they appear to have sentience, but they also can manipulate and corrupt the doomstones, which were made by the Nedes (according to the book I cited).

  As for the quote, I'm trying to figure out the interplay between the Serpent and the Guardians. What can they do to one another, other than what we've seen in ESO? How does it work. Why do the charges need protection (are they too weak to help themselves)? Alas, these questions might take us too far away fro the OP.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 17, 2015

  I don't know Vaal, chasing that interplay may be 100% on topic. Here is a nice little stack of books we have in the Imperial Library on such matters. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Redguard creation myth and the importance the Serpent holds in their culture, but the Thirty Six Lessons (S33) and Vivec's crap back it all up nicely.

  I don't know Vaal, chasing that interplay may be 100% on topic. Here is a nice little stack of books we have in the Imperial Library on such matters. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Redguard creation myth and the importance the Serpent holds in their culture, but the Thirty Six Lessons (S33) and Vivec's crap back it all up nicely.

• Vaaljørn

  

  Member
   

  April 17, 2015

  I'm working on a hypothesis. It's just in the initial stages, so, don't judge too harshly . . . yet. I was reading an oog article on Cosmology written by the Temple Zero Society (M.K.). Here's a portion:

  Constellations are collections of stars. Since each star is a bridge to magic, constellations are very powerful phenomena, and are revered. There are generally accepted to be thirteen constellations. Nine of these are made up completely of stars. Three others are called guardian constellations, as they are each governed by a Dominion Planet. The Dominion Planets are Akatosh (eye of the Warrior), Julianos (eye of the Sage), and Arkay (eye of the Thief). The last constellation is made up of unstars, and is called the Snake.

  Notably, this source claims that the constellations are governed (ruled, influenced, driven) by a Dominion Planet. These Dominion Planets are the Aedra. Yet, we know that the Aedra are not conscious agents.

  ESO presents the constellations with the ability to manifest themselves as conscious, sentient Celestial beings who are capable of speech, thoughts, desires, etc. In fact, the Thief was very concerned about its own safety as well the safety and well-being of Tamriel.

  Could it be that the conscious constellations are actually the agents of the non-conscious Aedra? The oog source indicates that the Dominion Planet govern the constellations. If we assume that govern in this context could mean drives or influences, then the conscious constellations could then be agents of the Aedra acting in accordance with the constellation's respective Aedric sphere.

  Now, this oog source only mentions the Guardians. Could we further expand this by connecting the Lesser Planets/Aedras (non-Dominion) to the lesser constellations (the Guardian's charges)? If so, then Mara might be connected to the Ritual constellation. This would explain "Mara's Gift" under the Ritual birth sign. It's part of her sphere. Therefore, the constellation provides that blessing.

  Also, before I forget, the doom/standing stones were created by the Nedes (ESO source) to worship the stars.

  Anyway, this is merely the beginning phase of a hypothesis. It's not solid yet, but I wanted to write it down as a way of processing it a bit more.

  I'm working on a hypothesis. It's just in the initial stages, so, don't judge too harshly . . . yet. I was reading an oog article on Cosmology written by the Temple Zero Society (M.K.). Here's a portion:

  Constellations are collections of stars. Since each star is a bridge to magic, constellations are very powerful phenomena, and are revered. There are generally accepted to be thirteen constellations. Nine of these are made up completely of stars. Three others are called guardian constellations, as they are each governed by a Dominion Planet. The Dominion Planets are Akatosh (eye of the Warrior), Julianos (eye of the Sage), and Arkay (eye of the Thief). The last constellation is made up of unstars, and is called the Snake.

  Notably, this source claims that the constellations are governed (ruled, influenced, driven) by a Dominion Planet. These Dominion Planets are the Aedra. Yet, we know that the Aedra are not conscious agents.

  ESO presents the constellations with the ability to manifest themselves as conscious, sentient Celestial beings who are capable of speech, thoughts, desires, etc. In fact, the Thief was very concerned about its own safety as well the safety and well-being of Tamriel.

  Could it be that the conscious constellations are actually the agents of the non-conscious Aedra? The oog source indicates that the Dominion Planet govern the constellations. If we assume that govern in this context could mean drives or influences, then the conscious constellations could then be agents of the Aedra acting in accordance with the constellation's respective Aedric sphere.

  Now, this oog source only mentions the Guardians. Could we further expand this by connecting the Lesser Planets/Aedras (non-Dominion) to the lesser constellations (the Guardian's charges)? If so, then Mara might be connected to the Ritual constellation. This would explain "Mara's Gift" under the Ritual birth sign. It's part of her sphere. Therefore, the constellation provides that blessing.

  Also, before I forget, the doom/standing stones were created by the Nedes (ESO source) to worship the stars.

  Anyway, this is merely the beginning phase of a hypothesis. It's not solid yet, but I wanted to write it down as a way of processing it a bit more.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 18, 2015

  Now, this oog source only mentions the Guardians. Could we further expand this by connecting the Lesser Planets/Aedras (non-Dominion) to the lesser constellations (the Guardian's charges)? If so, then Mara might be connected to the Ritual constellation. This would explain "Mara's Gift" under the Ritual birth sign. It's part of her sphere. Therefore, the constellation provides that blessing.

  Good work. Although we could argue back and forth that thirteen constellations. Nine of these are made up completely of stars to mean they have no ties to the plane(ts), why not run with it and see if there is anything to link the others? If we can find a pattern then The Ritual/Mara problem won't seem such an odd one out.

  Also, before I forget, the doom/standing stones were created by the Nedes (ESO source) to worship the stars.

  Where do you stand on the Nede/Nord issue Vaaljorn?

  Now, this oog source only mentions the Guardians. Could we further expand this by connecting the Lesser Planets/Aedras (non-Dominion) to the lesser constellations (the Guardian's charges)? If so, then Mara might be connected to the Ritual constellation. This would explain "Mara's Gift" under the Ritual birth sign. It's part of her sphere. Therefore, the constellation provides that blessing.

  Good work. Although we could argue back and forth that thirteen constellations. Nine of these are made up completely of stars to mean they have no ties to the plane(ts), why not run with it and see if there is anything to link the others? If we can find a pattern then The Ritual/Mara problem won't seem such an odd one out.

  Also, before I forget, the doom/standing stones were created by the Nedes (ESO source) to worship the stars.

  Where do you stand on the Nede/Nord issue Vaaljorn?

• Vaaljørn

  

  Member
   

  April 18, 2015

  To further complicate the matter, ESO's champion system has added Mara's Gift under the Tower constellation. I could deal with a change in constellation blessings if they remained within the same Guardian. This change, however, moves Mara's Gift from under the Mage Guardian to the Thief Guardian.

  We may simply be forcing a connection where none exists. It just bugs me that Beth/Zeni used a god's specific name.

  To further complicate the matter, ESO's champion system has added Mara's Gift under the Tower constellation. I could deal with a change in constellation blessings if they remained within the same Guardian. This change, however, moves Mara's Gift from under the Mage Guardian to the Thief Guardian.

  We may simply be forcing a connection where none exists. It just bugs me that Beth/Zeni used a god's specific name.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 18, 2015

  I did not know Mara's Gift was now under another Sign, that complicates matters.

  We may simply be forcing a connection where none exists

  The same conclusion I am hesitant to reach but aren't willing to concede defeat to just yet - I've been patient, a bit more time won't hurt

  Going back to your theory of how the Celestials may be the agents of the Aedra. There is actually a precedent in the form of the Serpent as we've seen.

  Lorkhan is the "Missing God". The Khajiit say he is doomed to "wander Nirn for many phases". Th Redguards say he must "slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars."

  So if The Serpent is Lorkhan (or part of him) - the void ghost, made up of unstars - why can't there be a direct link to the others? We just haven't seen it yet. To further confuse matters we need to throw old Sheggy into this mix:

  One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.

  So Sheogorath is also a part of Lorkhan, linking mythology, a Birthsign/Stone and a Daedric Prince together.

  So it begs the question: Are we looking at this the wrong way? The constellations are holes to Aetherius which allow magicka to radiate onto Nirn in highly significant patterns. Magicka, light, are souls. Are the constellations just as important to the Aedra as they are to mortals, these patterns acting as their bridge to Aetherius? If so, then theses patterns - bridges - may also bend to the will of mortals like the gods themselves do.

  I did not know Mara's Gift was now under another Sign, that complicates matters.

  We may simply be forcing a connection where none exists

  The same conclusion I am hesitant to reach but aren't willing to concede defeat to just yet - I've been patient, a bit more time won't hurt

  Going back to your theory of how the Celestials may be the agents of the Aedra. There is actually a precedent in the form of the Serpent as we've seen.

  Lorkhan is the "Missing God". The Khajiit say he is doomed to "wander Nirn for many phases". Th Redguards say he must "slink around in a dead skin, or swim about in the sky, a hungry void that jealously tried to eat the stars."

  So if The Serpent is Lorkhan (or part of him) - the void ghost, made up of unstars - why can't there be a direct link to the others? We just haven't seen it yet. To further confuse matters we need to throw old Sheggy into this mix:

  One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.

  So Sheogorath is also a part of Lorkhan, linking mythology, a Birthsign/Stone and a Daedric Prince together.

  So it begs the question: Are we looking at this the wrong way? The constellations are holes to Aetherius which allow magicka to radiate onto Nirn in highly significant patterns. Magicka, light, are souls. Are the constellations just as important to the Aedra as they are to mortals, these patterns acting as their bridge to Aetherius? If so, then theses patterns - bridges - may also bend to the will of mortals like the gods themselves do.

• AncienTzSlayeR

  

  Member
   

  April 18, 2015

  I've been at rugby the whole day (iemand afrikaans praat? xD ek dink nie so nie) anyway, ignore that.  I'll read up on some more stuff this sunday and hopefully have some input.

  I do not think we can yet concede that there is no link, but we have to keep that open as an option of course. And obviously, as new evidence arises, things may change.

  I've been at rugby the whole day (iemand afrikaans praat? xD ek dink nie so nie) anyway, ignore that.  I'll read up on some more stuff this sunday and hopefully have some input.

  I do not think we can yet concede that there is no link, but we have to keep that open as an option of course. And obviously, as new evidence arises, things may change.