The source quoted says aspects of the Divines. I'm sorry, but this means it is still referring to the exact same Divines, whether or not their aspects are different. Kyne or Kynareth, it's still nature. Mara or, oh look, Mara, its still love.
Mara is in almost every pantheon, and always has some relationship to love.
The source quoted says aspects of the Divines. I'm sorry, but this means it is still referring to the exact same Divines, whether or not their aspects are different. Kyne or Kynareth, it's still nature. Mara or, oh look, Mara, its still love.
Mara is in almost every pantheon, and always has some relationship to love.
Oh right, that makes sense, and with Lucifer being the false king, and a theory that the Stone might be corrupted, as in not what it really is, it could be false. Anyway, I can see some similarites between Mary and Mara, like the stain glass image which reminds me of various images of the Virgin Mary. And interesting to note, Talos' statue has him planting a sword in the body of a snake. Like how God told Eve and the Snake how the descendents of Eve would crush a snake underfoot, also with the Yokudan legend of Tall Papa shoving a Tower on top of a snake
Oh right, that makes sense, and with Lucifer being the false king, and a theory that the Stone might be corrupted, as in not what it really is, it could be false. Anyway, I can see some similarites between Mary and Mara, like the stain glass image which reminds me of various images of the Virgin Mary. And interesting to note, Talos' statue has him planting a sword in the body of a snake. Like how God told Eve and the Snake how the descendents of Eve would crush a snake underfoot, also with the Yokudan legend of Tall Papa shoving a Tower on top of a snake
I've never thought of the Talos thing before. I did notice the distinctly cross like shape of his shrine and his sort of 'Human who is a saviour and a god' thing xD
I've never thought of the Talos thing before. I did notice the distinctly cross like shape of his shrine and his sort of 'Human who is a saviour and a god' thing xD
So there are a lot of things going on in this topic. First there are the more obvious connections, such as the connection between the TES IV Oblivion's powers granted by the Stone and Birthsign having to do with the journey of a soul and the afterlife and Mara's sphere of Restoration - turning undead and healing.
Next there is the possibility of an Arkay/Mara connection making the modern incarnation of The Ritual Stone tie with Mara through association.
The biggest problem I have and always have had with any of these ideas, is that out of all the Birthsigns and Stones in TES Oblivion, Mara is the only divine to be linked to a particular power. If there was an actual link between the divines and the Birthsigns/Stones, there should be a pattern. As we all know, creating a theory to fit a non-existent pattern does not make good science.
The problem I have with the Akay/Mara connection lies in the 36 Lessons of Vivec. The biggest reason why I don't believe Arkay as the "mortal's god" is the presence of his planet, named Arkhat by the Dwemer. Maybe the story of Arkay ascending is a holdover myth from a previous Kalpa, but in this one his planet puts him at creation.
Don't get me wrong, I like the ideas here but we have nothing concrete. I eagerly awaited the new ESO lore and was very excited when the book Ysmir the Forefather was put up on UESP, here's the relevant part:
And when they reached the place, they found as the boy promised, a single stone. And Ysmir, who was by now very old, laid at the foot of the stone and was taken up into the stars.
The champions and housecarls looked up into the heavens and saw their king, the great Warrior, riding across the sky. And he was accompanied by three servants, a Lord, his Lady, and his might Steed.
Naturally, I followed the discussion about this on Reddit and looked forward to the Loremaster's Archive on the subject, Songs of the Stars. One of the scholars from the reddit asked:
Q: Do the other Guardian constellations have a similar mythic origin that you could reveal?"
A: So let us consider Ysmir, whose legend, as it happens, is known to me: did he ascend to the heavens to become The Warrior? That implies that the constellation was not there previously, which seems unlikely to me. Did he ascend to heaven by passing through his birthsign of The Warrior to achieve Aetherius beyond? Poetic, but possible, I suppose, at least for a figure of myth. Did Ysmir take The Warrior as his sigil because the Warrior represented his strengths, and was thus associated with that constellation even after his death (or passing, or assumption, or ascendance)? This seems to me the most likely explanation of all. However, others will certainly differ, and you may find their arguments more persuasive than mine."
Yet, as Tom pointed out, Ysmir is the only other god other than Mara and the departed Magnus to be mentioned in connection to a Stone or Sign, but his power in TES Oblivion comes from Lord Stone, one of the Warrior's Charges, not the Warrior as the new lore connects him to.
Finally an most obviously, is the fact that the Magna Ge should not have any connection to the Divines at all, being the ones who followed Magnus and all. Making assertions that Mara is connected to the Ritual due to a few perceived similarities of their spheres doesn't actually solve the theological question it raises.
So there are a lot of things going on in this topic. First there are the more obvious connections, such as the connection between the TES IV Oblivion's powers granted by the Stone and Birthsign having to do with the journey of a soul and the afterlife and Mara's sphere of Restoration - turning undead and healing.
Next there is the possibility of an Arkay/Mara connection making the modern incarnation of The Ritual Stone tie with Mara through association.
The biggest problem I have and always have had with any of these ideas, is that out of all the Birthsigns and Stones in TES Oblivion, Mara is the only divine to be linked to a particular power. If there was an actual link between the divines and the Birthsigns/Stones, there should be a pattern. As we all know, creating a theory to fit a non-existent pattern does not make good science.
The problem I have with the Akay/Mara connection lies in the 36 Lessons of Vivec. The biggest reason why I don't believe Arkay as the "mortal's god" is the presence of his planet, named Arkhat by the Dwemer. Maybe the story of Arkay ascending is a holdover myth from a previous Kalpa, but in this one his planet puts him at creation.
Don't get me wrong, I like the ideas here but we have nothing concrete. I eagerly awaited the new ESO lore and was very excited when the book Ysmir the Forefather was put up on UESP, here's the relevant part:
And when they reached the place, they found as the boy promised, a single stone. And Ysmir, who was by now very old, laid at the foot of the stone and was taken up into the stars.
The champions and housecarls looked up into the heavens and saw their king, the great Warrior, riding across the sky. And he was accompanied by three servants, a Lord, his Lady, and his might Steed.
Naturally, I followed the discussion about this on Reddit and looked forward to the Loremaster's Archive on the subject, Songs of the Stars. One of the scholars from the reddit asked:
Q: Do the other Guardian constellations have a similar mythic origin that you could reveal?"
A: So let us consider Ysmir, whose legend, as it happens, is known to me: did he ascend to the heavens to become The Warrior? That implies that the constellation was not there previously, which seems unlikely to me. Did he ascend to heaven by passing through his birthsign of The Warrior to achieve Aetherius beyond? Poetic, but possible, I suppose, at least for a figure of myth. Did Ysmir take The Warrior as his sigil because the Warrior represented his strengths, and was thus associated with that constellation even after his death (or passing, or assumption, or ascendance)? This seems to me the most likely explanation of all. However, others will certainly differ, and you may find their arguments more persuasive than mine."
Yet, as Tom pointed out, Ysmir is the only other god other than Mara and the departed Magnus to be mentioned in connection to a Stone or Sign, but his power in TES Oblivion comes from Lord Stone, one of the Warrior's Charges, not the Warrior as the new lore connects him to.
Finally an most obviously, is the fact that the Magna Ge should not have any connection to the Divines at all, being the ones who followed Magnus and all. Making assertions that Mara is connected to the Ritual due to a few perceived similarities of their spheres doesn't actually solve the theological question it raises.