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Debate - The Death of Torryg: Beaten in Fair Combat or Brutally

  • March 1, 2015 3:40 PM EST

    I'm not sure if there's anything formal, but it's definitely implied that Torygg's line has the Empire's support for continuing to be High Kings. That's why he inherited the throne from his father (who, it should be noted, Ulfric grudgingly notes was much better than his son).

    Backing Elisif to succeed him is seen as being in part with this- she may or may not be a good candidate on her own, but she is the one who is most closely tied to Imperial interests. Even if their support is 100% sincere, it certainly works out for the Empire if she takes the crown...they'll have had a major part in putting her there, and they know she'll know it.

    • 92 posts
    March 2, 2015 10:15 AM EST

    Okay, since you asked so nicely, I'll bite. First, I have to say that I am not a lore master like Matt, Phil, or Tom. I'm just a novice, so bear that in mind when you read this. This is going to be a long one, so brace yourselves . . . 

    The tradition of challenging the sitting High King to a duel is most definitely an ancient Nord custom. No one can really deny that. I see two issues at play, here: (1) Imperial culture vs. ancient Nord culture; and (2) Use of the Thu'um. 

    Imperial culture vs. ancient Nord culture 

    No one can deny that the custom of challenging the High King to a duel had not been practiced in a long time. If it were, why it be a shock to many citizens, including those who pledge allegiance to Ulfric? Very rarely--if at all--do we encounter a citizen who says very coldly, "Yeah, Ulfric challenged the High King according to our customs." On the contrary, citizens appeal to ancient Nord traditions and customs to legitimize Ulfric's actions. Why? I believe that Imperial culture has so seeped into the fabric of Skyrim and her citizens that ancient Nord anything is seen as unusual. This is easy to understand. The Empire has been the dominate force since the second era. The Empire brought to Skyrim prosperous trade, safety, and a new way of civilization. Apart from the Stormcloaks, there are no Nord armies--just Nords making up the backbone of the Imperial Legion. If the Dunmer were to attack Skyrim, the Legion would protect her, not Nord armies. 

    All this to say that Nord culture has "morphed" (for a lack of a better word) into a Skyrimized Imperial culture. For better. (we can argue all day about the Septim vs. Mede dynasties, but that's not the subject). Was Ulfric's actions, then, legal? No, not according to Imperial law. Skyrim has followed Imperial law, admittedly, with some autonomy, since the second era.

    Here’s an example. During the colonial days of U.S. history, a person was punished for their crimes by being placed in the stocks in the public square. Now, that ancient custom seems strange, silly, and uncivilized 200 years later. However, here comes the traditionalist. He intercepts a convicted felon on the way to prison and places him in a home-made stocks. Hey, it's a return to tradition held by all Americans. While mildly amusing, you'd still have some Americans in favor of it (believe it or not). However, that wouldn't make it right. In fact, it would be illegal. One can argue for a return to ancient custom without breaking curent law. 

    Let's face it, Nords are pretty confused about their own customs. In Nords Arise!, the author claims that Talos blessed Ulfric with the Thu'um. We know that Akatosh granted the gift. What other misinterpreted customs do the Nords claim for support?

    Interesting side note: nothing in-game indicates that anyone before Ulfric even thought about challenging Torygg--even the Jarls who despised Torygg. 

    Use of the Thu'um 

    Even if you think that Ulfric's duel was legal, using the Thu'um was amazingly unfair. First, the Thu'um had not been used in combat in over 4,000 years. Why would Torygg expect to face Ulfric's shout? How could he prepare for it? Second, even when the Thu'um was used in combat, only a select group of Nords even had this power. The very fact that Thu'um-users had their own unique title, Tongues, tells me that this group of people was small (compared to the rest of Skyrim) and unique. Granted, all fights have a measure of disproportionality. Someone will always be better. However, using the Thu'um against someone who would never have that power, is akin to David and Goliath, and Goliath (the nine-foot freak) won. It would only be fair if Torygg could shout, and even if Torygg was not as good at shouting as Ulfric, I would not call the fight unfair. Tullius and the Jarls aligned with the Empire appear to be shocked with Ulfric's shouting. You hear less about the duel itself and more about the morality of Ulfric's use of shouting. Tullius, at Helgen, says, "But a hero doesn't use a power like the Voice to murder his king and usurp his throne." 

    Last Thoughts 

    I like Ulfric as a character because of the controversy he engenders. However, I do think that he illegally and immorally performed the duel. I think he's power-hungry and somewhat self-serving (read: Nords Arise!). Nevertheless, I think Skyrim has a valid claim against the Imperial ratification of the White-Gold Concordat. 

    However, a united humanity is essential for mankind's survival. Human unity is a consistent theme through ES history from the Dawn Era War of the Ehlnofey through the First through Third Empires. Mortal men will not survive the Dominion scattered and fractured.

  • August 15, 2015 9:44 AM EDT

    Skyrim was under the Empire's rule with a High King that answered to the Empire; Ulfric did not have the legal ground to kill High King Torygg, nor did Ulfric need it as in his mind, killing Torygg in the old way was the first step to freedom from Imperial rule.

    Arguing morally will largely be futile but to have some fun, arguably. The Empire unequivocal win in matters of pragmatism but allowing its vassals to be tortured by a foreign power - and in turn making self defense illegal - does the Empire no credit.

    I cannot fault the Stormcloaks on those grounds and had Torygg declared independence, a lot of bloodshed may have been avoided. Or perhaps Ulfric desired the throne for some time and knew Torygg stood no chance against his Thu'um, although Ulfric does not seem like someone who would use the voice for power grabbing. 

     

    • 558 posts
    August 15, 2015 2:36 PM EDT

    Every single Nord has the ability to learn the Thuum. It is similar to how the Bosmer have the Wild Hunt, except the Bosmer can use that without training.

    Ulfric was protected by law to challenge the High King. So really it was Torrygs fault for not being prepared to face someone probably twice his age.

    • 641 posts
    August 15, 2015 2:43 PM EDT

    First off that was an out of date tradition that wasn't enforced anymore secondly using magic in a duel is against the rules.

    • 168 posts
    August 15, 2015 5:31 PM EDT

    ANY leader who accepts surrender under some kind of threat is no leader. Torygg didn't stand down just so he could live. He probably knew he stood no chance against a veteran like Ulfric, shout or no shout. That's just part of the burden of leadership, so choosing to fight over having an impression of a weak high king should not be one of them.

    • 558 posts
    August 15, 2015 6:54 PM EDT

    Well, in regards to the question, the answer is leaning more towards "beaten in fair combat". Ulfric didn't sneak into Torygg's bedroom in the middle of the night and "shout him to pieces", did he?

    I think the answer to the question is "Tor Tor was beaten in combat". All's fair in love and war, right?

    • 641 posts
    August 15, 2015 6:56 PM EDT

    No because using magic in a duel is not fair combat they even say so in the Companion quest

  • August 15, 2015 7:07 PM EDT
    Must not be out of date because Torygg did it.
    • 558 posts
    August 15, 2015 8:29 PM EDT

    I guess we have learned one thing from the ES universe: People will do crazy things for what they believe in. 

    • 558 posts
    August 15, 2015 8:32 PM EDT

    Kappa

  • August 16, 2015 8:57 AM EDT

    I think Ulfric did the right thing to remove Torryg because Torryg wasn't doing the right thing to remove unjust laws from his country. 

    #StepUp #IfYouWon'tIWill

  • August 16, 2015 6:32 PM EDT

    But a hero doesn't use a power like the Voice to murder his king and usurp his throne.

    Tell me about it

    - Forsworn

    ahem

    • 18 posts
    August 17, 2015 5:27 AM EDT
    I personally never liked Ulfric .. and always take him out when the time comes lol however what if the dragon born wanted to be high king and used his voice to take the throne ? I know it's not a option in game but for role playing purposes what if at some point he or she decided after all they have done for skyrim they should be high king ? Would that be murder if they used their voice to take the throne . ☺️☺️
  • August 18, 2015 3:02 AM EDT

    The, "Why doesn't the Dragonborn just kill everyone and become High King/Queen themselves?" bit has never really impressed me. At best, it raises some semi-interesting questions on the nature of "choice" in videogames and how we're really still restricted to a handful of pre-selected paths*. At worst, it comes across as a self-serving argument that seems designed to troll anyone who's actually attempting to engage the issue. The question at the top isn't, "Who should be High King?", it's "Was Ulfric's killing of Torygg legal/justifiable?"

    The real answer to why the Dragonborn can't become High King/Queen is, "Because the developers didn't want you to."

    EDIT: I should probably add the *. Basically, something tabletop RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons do well is put complete control in the players' hands; the only limits on what you can do are what the other people at the table will let you get away with.

  • August 18, 2015 10:24 AM EDT
    "At worst, it comes across as a self-serving argument that seems designed to troll anyone who's actually attempting to engage the issue."

    Eh, yes and no. I do have a tendency to troll people on topics like this. But people always bring up Ulfric winning the duel and if we decide leadership by personal strength, then the Last Dragonborn is inarguably THE perfect candidate. People should be able to respond that and I still haven't seen a proper one. Shor even went so far as to say Ulfric has a chance of beating the Dragonborn (hint: he doesn't).

    As for how much it interests me, that just depends. It easily has the *potential* to be more interesting than Ulfric as High King because the Last Dragonborn can have way more conflict about them. But that's talking about the potential for something and that's not extremely useful.
    • 18 posts
    August 18, 2015 12:20 PM EDT
    Wow .. I wasn't ( trolling ) to use your point .. I just took a different look @ it period ! My opinion on the issue of high king really developed around whom deserved it more .. That was my only point but discussions like this people always interpret a comment the way they see fit !!
  • August 18, 2015 12:27 PM EDT
     But people always bring up Ulfric winning the duel and if we decide leadership by personal strength, then the Last Dragonborn is inarguably THE perfect candidate.

    Is that really what's going on, though? The duel isn't an Official Leadership Test - Ulfric could challenge Torygg because Torygg was the Jarl of Haafingar, not because he was High King. (that is, as equals) I saw the ritualized duel as a cultural way of letting jarls who hated each other settle their fight personally, rather than having them pit their entire holds against each other. It's a way to resolve conflicts, in other words. It just happened to also allow a disgruntled jarl to bump off the current High King and force a leadership change...which then erupted into open war when the jarls lined up evenly on each side.

    Ulfric had general contempt for Torygg, not just Torygg's leadership skills. The "If you can't protect yourself, how can you protect your kingdom" struck me as metaphorical, rather than a literal "might makes right" statement. These aren't Klingons or Orcs; they believe in strength, but they don't literally just follow the toughest person around. (Look at how many jarls are very old, very young or otherwise infirm. Idgrod's a sharp woman, but I doubt she'd win many swordfights)

    If Ulfric, or the Nords, thought the physically toughest person automatically was the best leader, then Ulfric would have just done the same to every Imperial-aligned jarl that he did to Torygg - challenge them to a duel, then kill them and take their holds. He explicitly doesn't do that, because he wants to show that he also is a capable leader. ("He's shown them what he can do personally, now he seeks to prove the strength of his army." - a semi-exact quote from an NPC whose name I forget)

    As is often the case, I think the "fact" that "Ulfric killed Torygg to show he's a better leader" is based more on what people have heard other, anti-Stormcloak players say online than on an actual analysis of the game.

  • August 18, 2015 12:35 PM EDT

    I wasn't accusing you, personally, of trolling. I just don't like the, "Why doesn't the Dragonborn take over?" question.

    • 18 posts
    August 18, 2015 12:36 PM EDT
    Whom better to be king then the guy or woman whom saves skyrim from the dragons .. Whom better to unite skyrim against the Thalmor then the dragonborn ? After all that's a real prob with then hauling off people in the middle of the night .. And to anyone who reads my comments it's jus my take is all
    • 18 posts
    August 18, 2015 12:39 PM EDT
    Asks .. It's all good no worries .. I jus always thought that shoulda been included kinda like Tiber septim is all .. Maybe I chose the wrong discussion for that
  • August 18, 2015 12:39 PM EDT
    I was thinking more of a conqueror-type approach actually :P
  • August 18, 2015 12:42 PM EDT

    These things tend to wander a lot, because they usually start with a specific question, then devolve into reflexive partisan bickering and people taking cheap shots at whatever aspect of the other side's position pops into their heads.

    So, pretty much like a meeting of Congress. Ba-zing!

    • 18 posts
    August 18, 2015 12:45 PM EDT
    Lol asks .. That's my fault I apologize for that
  • August 18, 2015 12:53 PM EDT
    Then what is Ulfric's claim to the kingship? An army is a fine claim, but people (NPCs) are already calling "the rightful High King" so he apparently has another one. If his only claim is an army (again, a fine claim), then he isn't the rightful High King until he actually conquers Skyrim.