Tamriel Vault - Debate - The Death of Torryg: Beaten in Fair Combat or Brutally

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Debate - The Death of Torryg: Beaten in Fair Combat or Brutally

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Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 12:29 AM EDT

I meant more in the sense of an evolution (of sorts) in intellectualism concerning my post with a picture of a train wreck followed by a starting a separate-threaded, rational discussion about a point you brought up, followed by the apparent intellectual devolution of you responding to that rational topic, then coming back here just to make a verbal jab. Just sort of an oddity about the order in which things occurred in linear time, is all.
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 12:39 AM EDT

I'm with you on this. There's no reason for Skyrim and Hammerfell to forge an alliance. Keeping in mind that almost no one in Tamriel (if, indeed, anyone inside the fiction itself) has any idea what the Thalmor are actually doing all this in order to accomplish, simply disliking the Thalmor is not sufficient political motivation for two distinct and not particularly allied-to-begin-with nations to suddenly become buddies.

Trade between nations is just something that happens, one way or another, with however many tariffs and embargoes that result. You don't have to be political allies with Hammerfell just to get a bottle of Stros M'kai rum now and again.
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 12:43 AM EDT

Windhelm's probably getting quite a bit of money directly from the Empire, due to the East Empire Company maintaining an office there.
Asks-Many-Questions
- 278 posts
August 20, 2015 12:48 AM EDT

I dunno, the Redguard probably hate the Dominion even more than the Nords do, given that they kept fighting after the Empire made peace. And, given that Hammerfell left the Empire over that fact, I think there'd be room for some common ground between them and a newly independent Skyrim.

"Hey, I see that you left the Empire because they gave away parts of your country to the Dominion. We just left the Empire because they were allowing the Dominion to control our culture and religion. Now that we're both independent, we're vulnerable to those damn elves...how about an alliance?"
Asks-Many-Questions
- 278 posts
August 20, 2015 12:50 AM EDT

Aren't the Alik'r, like, bandits or mercenaries or something? I can understand why the guards wouldn't want them skulking about town, hassling people.
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 12:51 AM EDT

I'm either terribly confused by what you're saying, or you haven't realized the Stormcloaks actually win and gain independence if the player finishes the questline on their side?
Borommakot
- 1217 posts
August 20, 2015 12:54 AM EDT

The point is attempting to identify a precedent for Redquard/Stormcloak collaboration.
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 12:55 AM EDT

It's a start, at least. But then you have to deal with bridging cultural barriers, winning over dignitaries, distracting or buying off those opposed to the idea, etc. etc. It's a messy and tangled process most of the time, politics.
Matt Feeney the New Guy
- 1124 posts
August 20, 2015 12:58 AM EDT

There dozens, if not hundreds, of Alik'r tribes. Some are mercs (like the ones in Skyrim), some are scholars, some are probably even pacifists (a Redguard pacifist would be a strange sight), etc.
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 12:58 AM EDT

Yes, winning the war is definitely better than throwing it. And Ulfric's an honorable Nord. (Although some do disagree with the honor of the duel, overall I think it's obvious he's a man of honor. Plus, he gets into Sovngarde and recites poetry! )
Deleted Member
August 20, 2015 1:03 AM EDT

Minor correction

"Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province [my emphasis] in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty" -- The Great War

The Redguards of Hammerfell did not have to leave the Empire. Emperor Titus Mede II made that decision for them. They just did not rejoin after fighting the Dominion to a standstill, which resulted in the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai; however, the treaty's contents beyond the Dominion's withdrawal are unknown.
Asks-Many-Questions
- 278 posts
August 20, 2015 1:04 AM EDT

Well, yeah. It's hard. But people seem to be suggesting it'd never happen, when I think it's pretty likely. The benefits to both parties (security against the Dominion or reprisals from the Empire, economic boosts from focused trade) seem to far outweigh the counter arguments, which seem (to me) to boil down to a somewhat reductive "Nords are ***holes and won't get invited to sit at the cool kids table."
Asks-Many-Questions
- 278 posts
August 20, 2015 1:07 AM EDT

@Foreberialis I don't see how that changes any of what I said. They both were, from their point of view, screwed over by the treaty. (The Empire being forced to abandon Hammerfell to fight the Dominion alone and Skyrim being forced to alter it's predominant religion at sword-point.)
Deleted Member
August 20, 2015 1:18 AM EDT

For some reason I cannot reply to your latest comment.

I don't see how that changes any of what I said.

Conceivably.

They both were, from their point of view, screwed over by the treaty.

I am not disagreeing with that.

I simply wanted to provide a correction to the common assertion that Hammerfell seceded from the Empire, a minor correction but one worthwhile to me as I need things to be as precise as possible and find it torturous to not do my duty in that regard, and I threw in the variable of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai, that variable being the unknown contents of said treaty, a fair one, I believe, considering discussions of an independent Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance is entirely speculative.
Borommakot
- 1217 posts
August 20, 2015 1:21 AM EDT

After a certain number of replies, the "nested" reply doesn't work anymore, presumably because they just get closer and closer to the left XD. For those you just have to find the nearest reply button (or start a fresh comment thread).
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 1:23 AM EDT

And the more replies you get when it's like this, the further away that functional Reply button gets.

Oh gods, I'm contributing to the madness!
Librari the Wizard
- 237 posts
August 20, 2015 2:38 AM EDT

Is that because the Imperials are so good at keeping their chamberpots clean compared to the Nords? There's a thing called soap, you probably won't find any in Skyrim.
HumanOfPrey
- 168 posts
August 20, 2015 12:15 PM EDT

@Asks-Many-Questions

"Hey, I see that you left the Empire because they gave away parts of your country to the Dominion. We just left the Empire because they were allowing the Dominion to control our culture and religion. Now that we're both independent, we're vulnerable to those damn elves...how about an alliance?"

Like I said, Hammerfell doesn’t NEED help, offering help where none is needed isn’t going to be enough. IF Hammerfell was losing ground, or losing too many men, or if they were advancing on the Thalmor, collecting ships and supplies, someone approaching them with aid/supplies could forge an alliance to face a common enemy. As is stands now, Hammerfell is fine on its own. In order for this alliance to work, Skyrim and Hammerfell need to TRUST each other, because who is to say once Ulfric has his troops in Hammerfell, he doesn't just decide to try and take Hammerfell while it's weak? Ulfric doesn’t have any ambitions, and I have no direct evidence to support he would do that, but how does Hammerfell know that? Are they just supposed to say "oh you hate those damn elves too? Come on in! It's a party!"? Treaties have to be drawn up, negotiations made, terms met. That's why I said mutual hatred is a reason to forge an alliance but not THE reason.
Asks-Many-Questions
- 278 posts
August 20, 2015 4:17 PM EDT

What, exactly, do people think I've been arguing? That Skyrim and Hammerfell will see each other across the ballroom..their eyes will meet...they'll know it's The One.

I'm not underplaying that it'd require diplomacy and effort at all, yet I keep getting reactions like I've suggested they'd be BFFs instantly, no questions asked. Please. I just think that a Hammerfell/Skyrim alliance makes a lot of strategic sense in a post-independence world, where the Empire will have withered to the point that there's no real large, singular entity to deter Dominion aggression. Just because it seems hard doesn't mean it's not likely. Enemies make deals all the time! That's why they need a deal - because they're not good enough friends to just work together naturally. (Just look at the current negotiations surrounding Iran; there's certainly no love lost there) And Hammerfell and Skyrim are far from enemies.

The other argument seems to be, "Everyone hates Ulfric! Why would anyone trust/work with him?!" My response is: No, not everyone on Nirn hates Ulfric. Yeah, the Empire isn't very fond of him, but beyond that I doubt most people in other nations could care less about the internal politics of some faraway country. Ulfric's international profile is much more likely to be shaped by his post-rebellion actions, when Skyrim turns from settling into the transition to independence and starts paying attention to what's going on outside her borders.

As to the idea that people "wouldn't know" that Ulfric isn't planning to invade their countries...why would they suspect that? He's a Nord, who is fighting to rule the Nord homeland. Even if they did, they'd likely see him as the lesser of several evils. Pretty much every nation on Nirn is full of jerks of one stripe or another. The Redguard know that the Dominion wants to conquer them, and they know the Empire was willing to abandon them to protect itself...so, are they really going to turn away an offer of mutual assistance just because Ulfric might be like the two groups they've already dealt with?
Rogue
- 743 posts
August 20, 2015 4:20 PM EDT

Source? Lol, play the game.
Borommakot
- 1217 posts
August 20, 2015 4:23 PM EDT

I don't remember anyone in the game talking about the privacy of the Redguards being problematic.
Rogue
- 743 posts
August 20, 2015 4:25 PM EDT

It requires you to pay attention. I'm not backing up something that's painfully obvious.
Borommakot
- 1217 posts
August 20, 2015 4:28 PM EDT

What's with the hostility, man? If people aren't familiar with it, just maybe it's not painfully obvious to them. You sounded like you had specific dialogue in mind, so it's not at all unreasonable to ask what it was.
Rogue
- 743 posts
August 20, 2015 4:30 PM EDT

My apologies for the hostility, recent events have made me "salty" so to speak.
Borommakot
- 1217 posts
August 20, 2015 4:35 PM EDT

Understood. My inbox is always open, if that's any help.