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• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 2:03 PM EST

  It's certainly a denouncement (at least implicitly) of their policy of non-interference.

  Fun fact: Ulfric and Delphine seem to know each other. During Season Unending, he asks her who Esbern is in a way that implies they are acquainted. Given that Delphine is the only other character to really call out the Greybeards for refusing to use their power to help, I just think that it's interesting. (Obviously, they couldn't have met until he had already left High Hrothgar, but they certainly seem to have similar ideas about the responsibility that comes with power)

• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 2:08 PM EST

  Though that is literally just a gesture. I'm surprised this is even brought up with lines like this in the game.

  Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
  Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
  Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
  Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
  Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

  ~~~

  We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King. It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't start acting like it.

  Dude's not humble, he wants to be High King, and plans on it.

• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 2:12 PM EST

  Yeah, I've seen the Greybeards in much the same light for a while, and nowadays I just think of this exchange in Guardians of the Galaxy:

  Rocket Raccoon: Why would you want to save the galaxy?

  Peter Quill: Because I'm one of the idiots who lives in it!

• Rogue

  

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  February 28, 2015 2:57 PM EST

  This is what I'm inquiring. I think most would agree to break a promise to save the people from oppression.

• Rogue

  

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  February 28, 2015 3:00 PM EST

  That Is something that has never been told clearly. No one really knows why he bought the bazooka.

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 3:02 PM EST

  I'd feel better about Ulfric's duel with Torryg if he had accepted Balgruff's challenge later on. I dunno--something about his selective attitude toward duels always struck me as a bit... hinky.
• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 3:07 PM EST

  Are we sure that's what was happening? I didn't think Balgruff was challenging him to a duel.

• ShinJin

  

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  February 28, 2015 3:18 PM EST

  It seemed heavily implied to me, but I do tend to read into things more than is often good for me. I'd feel pretty foolish thinking it was a challenge to duel when really it's an ancient Nord marriage proposal (but even then... what's wrong with Balgruuf? xD).
• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 3:27 PM EST

  Right? Guy's got it goin' on XD. Now I can't help thinking about the marriage pizza from Stargate.

  Seriously, though, I took it as more of a "with us or against us" statement/question. I could be wrong, of course. Ulfric turning the down the challenge would definitely work against him, though, and seems like it'd be highly publicized by Balgruff, if not the Empire.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 3:42 PM EST

  It's not a challenge, it's an offer of alliance. It changes based on which side you support- which man offers the axe, and which rejects it. Either way, they refuse to work together.
• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 3:49 PM EST

  So Balgruuf was offering aid? Gotta say, this seriously changes the way I've viewed the game (it also makes Balgruff have a little less goin' on in my eyes xD).
• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 3:52 PM EST

  No, Ulfric sent the axe, and Balgruff sent it back, which I would understand as Ulfric offering an alliance, and Balgruff rejecting it.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

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  February 28, 2015 3:59 PM EST

  But if you choose Imperial Balgruuf sends Ulfric the axe

• ShinJin

  

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  February 28, 2015 4:14 PM EST

  Ahhhh, there we go! I've only done Stormcloak once, and when Balgruuf laid on the guilt trip I shut it down (I don't handle shame well).
  
  I don't like that Balgruuf would cave to Ulfric like that, nor understand why Ulfric would reject an offer of aid from Whiterun... deez Nords!
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 5:02 PM EST

  The implication n both versions is that the man who sends the axe is essentially asking, "Are we still on the same side?"
  
  In Balgruuf's version, Ulfric sends the axe back because he's gotten tired of waiting and plans to attack Whiterun, which sends Balgruuf to request aid from the Legion in defending his city. Balgruuf's refusal to take sides is de facto support for the Empire, and is a liability the Stormcloaks can no longer afford.
  
  In Ulfric's version, Balgruuf returns the axe because he's offended that Ulfric is forcing his hand- he wants to remain neutral, but Ulfric is essentially saying demanding that Balgruuf declare for the Stormcloaks or be attacked. There are hints at some sort of personal history between the two, as well- something that's left them on bad terms.
• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 5:06 PM EST

  More history I'd like to read.

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 5:39 PM EST

  Amen!
• The Master Wolf

  

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  February 28, 2015 5:49 PM EST

  We need a like comment system because yours deserves one !!XD
• The Master Wolf

  

  • 23 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 5:53 PM EST

  What is a fair combat is the fist question that should be asked?IMO a fair combat is when to combatants fight equally no backstabbing no sneaking if your fighting with swords fight with swords !! I found that killing a High King with a shout is cheating because then teach a kid to shout and he could be the High king ?! So for me it s a murder and ulfric just proved that he was to coward to face the high king in a fair combat and decided to shout him damn did I feel good when at the end of the civil war *spoiler alert*I shouted Ulfric to pieces after beating him up!!
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 5:57 PM EST

  There's no way to have 100% equal combat; one person is always going to be at least a little better than the other. If Ulfric is taller than Torygg, is it cheating? The Voice is a skill that can be learned; using it in a duel may be unsportsmanlike, but there's little evidence it's against the "rules."
• The Master Wolf

  

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  February 28, 2015 5:59 PM EST

  Of course one man is going to be better than the other but sword against sword one would have been better than the other but shouting against sword isn't right especially if you want to be high king you need to prove yourself by a fair combat agin IMO
• Logan B.

  

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  February 28, 2015 6:53 PM EST

  But unless Durnehviir was summoned by Ulfric to learn the Soul Tear shout, it's very unlikely Ulfric could have killed him by shouting. And the only shout Ulfric uses in battle is Unrelenting Force(I witnessed this when killing Tullius). Seeing as he cut his training with the Greybeards short due to the Great War, I doubt he would've learned any other shouts, but it may be possible. Now, even taking that into account, the most he could do is use all three words of one shout, and that would be it, after that, swordplay would be the main deciding factor. On the subject of legality and morality, Ulfric sought to show the Jarls of Skyrim that Toryg was unfit to rule. So he issued a challenge, Toryg could have denied the challenge, but the Jarls would then convene the moot to decide on a new king anyway. And it's not like Toryg was oblivious to the fact that Ulfric could harness the power of the Thu'um. He used shouts in the Markarth incident after all. Now consider the fact that mages could have challenged the High-King as well. Would he have stood a chance then? More than likely not, the duel with Ulfric is no different, aside from the fact that he could only shout once before having to resort to his sword, whereas a mage could cast a multitude of spells to annihilate Toryg, even turning him to ash. So with all this taken into affect, Ulfric's challenge legitimizes itself. 

• Deleted Member

  
   

  February 28, 2015 7:09 PM EST

  Torygg was probably a puppet like Elisf. A yes man. A yes man is not a king. A king needs balls, and that's one thing a yes man doesn't have.
• Borommakot

  

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  February 28, 2015 7:18 PM EST

  

  • Gameplay (like shout cooldowns, or even the power of a given shout) is not reflective of lore. Ten years of training with the Greybeards doesn't tell us anything at all about Ulfric's capabilities with the Voice, as we don't know and have no way of knowing what a student of the Greybeards can accomplish in ten years. It's pretty commonly accepted that Ulfric didn't literally shout him to death, though.
  • Three words of Unrelenting Force is more than enough to kill most enemies, the duel being case in point. Sword play was not a deciding factor in the duel, at all.
  • In a mage's duel, a court wizard would likely have stood in for the Jarl. Magic vs Steel duels are simply not a thing.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:20 PM EST

  That's a mighty big probably you've got in there. Still, that's a serious shortcoming of the Civil War narrative for me; no one talks about Torygg's rule and what it was like. A few simple lines of dialogue, even in passing, would have gone miles towards better justifying Ulfric's actions.