Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Zach

  

  • 253 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:21 PM EST

  @Borom especially when you consider that any shout can be blocked by a simple ward, the court mage would have (especially as a vampire) torn Ulfric a new one.

• Logan B.

  

  • 16 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:24 PM EST

  Maven Black-Briar becomes the Jarl of Riften when the Legion is sided with, she is probably one of the most corrupt government officials I've seen in Skyrim. She controls everything, she is not just, and the only reason she let her son get arrested was becuase she wanted to teach him to kill people more quietly. She has the full support of the Empire, not only that but she has ties with the Dark Brotherhood, and Thieves Guild, if you ask me, most, if not all, of the imperial Jarls are in their position because they seek power and power alone, where the Stormcloaks wish to help the people of their hold. Another example is Jarl Sidgeir.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:26 PM EST

  I see no reason to doubt Ulfric's word that he stabbed Torygg to death after knocking him down. Why would he lie? Even if you assume use of the Voice constituted "cheating" (and I do not), he still used it to good effect in both versions. If anything, the version where Torygg is killed solely by the Shout is more impressive and likely to make people fear him.
• Logan B.

  

  • 16 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:27 PM EST

  Still standing is the point that Torygg still knew that Ulfric could shout, and if he knew that, why wouldn't he have had Stentor face Ulfric instead.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:28 PM EST

  I guess that's the point? Saying outright that Torygg was a bad king might have been seen as loading the narrative too much to the side of the Stormcloaks.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:32 PM EST

  It wouldn't be necessary to say Torygg was a bad king. All they'd need to do is place some doubt-worthy breadcrumbs. From where I stand right now, the narrative is loaded against the Stormcloaks; something like a line about garrisoning Imperial troops or something could have balanced that out.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  February 28, 2015 7:35 PM EST

  If the High King was elected by jarls who love Imperial gold, he must have not been like ulfric.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:36 PM EST

  You've ignored a lot of Jarls on both sides here. Two Jarls does not a case make by any stretch of the imagination, but for the debate's sake, tell me more about the honorable intentions of Thongvor or Korir (2 for 2).

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:39 PM EST

  That's not a point. Lots of people can do lots of things. Not all of those things can or should be used in an honorable duel. Torygg knew Ulfric had the Thu'um, but why would he assume that he would use it in a duel?

  Again (and touching on Zach's point), it could have been sorted with one line of dialogue from one NPC saying "And Torygg didn't even get his ward up before..." and boom. It's not a question of murdere/userper vs freedom fighter, it's a question of Skyrim's rights vs. Imperial law.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:40 PM EST

  What's wrong with Korir? He doesn't like mages, sure, but he's not crazy or evil. Skald is a better example.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:45 PM EST

  You're probably right there. I referred to Korir because of his quest to the helmet/crown that's supposed to somehow restore Winterhold's influence again.

• Logan B.

  

  • 16 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:46 PM EST

  You make a fair point, but could you please elaborate on Korir? His main interactions are getting the Dragonborn to collect the Helm of Winterhold, and making you Thane, am I correct?

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:49 PM EST

  I'd classify Korir as blind or ignorant. Maybe stupid.

• Logan B.

  

  • 16 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:50 PM EST

  And it's wrong because...? Winterhold is practically forgotten, even in the book The Holds of Skyrim it states that Winterhold is a wasteland and should be ignored as a real threat, save for the weather.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 7:55 PM EST

  ...Weren't you just decrying seeking after power? What does he need influence for? The only person who backs him up is his wife, even as he tries to spread paranoia about the College (granted that it may have totally been to blame for Winterholds destruction...decades before Korir became Jarl). Basically, it feels like he harps on his people, more than he helps them.

• Logan B.

  

  • 16 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:00 PM EST

  Yes I was, but in the case of Winterhold he is just looking to get it noticed again. Aside from the College, the city has literally nothing. The people of Skyrim make no mention of the capitol or hold itself save for carriage drivers taking you there or when you ask to learn more about magic to an innkeeper.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:04 PM EST

  Jeeze, Matt, did Korir key your car or something? At worst, he just seems like a stubborn jerk who wants someone to blame for a natural disaster.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:06 PM EST

  People in Skyrim rarely mention any location other than Solitude, Windhelm or Helgen, so that's not unusual. Actually, it's the contrary, since more than one NPC directs you to Winterhold to seek out the College. And then there's the College. Korir's paranoia hasn't been justified in decades (and, funnily enough, would remain unjustified without the player character's intervention). He should be embracing the College and supporting it.

  I want to note that I don't think this makes him a bad guy (certainly not compared to the other Jarls we've mentioned so far). But I am saying that he doesn't have his peoples' best interests at heart.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:06 PM EST

  Lol.

• Logan B.

  

  • 16 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:07 PM EST

  Then I agree with you on that note.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  • 1124 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:11 PM EST

  Lol. Well he blames the College for the fall of Winterhold despite having absolutely no evidence. And will even say that you will have blood on your hands if you show a desire to join the College. That's less me holding a grudge and more of a literal definition of the word 'ignorant'.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:12 PM EST

  Borom, I didn't need anything else to see it that way. I think people in these debates put far too much emphasis on minor details. All that's important is that Ulfric killed Torygg in a duel, used the Thu'um to help him do it and escaped before the Imperials could arrest him.
  
  In my opinion, that's all you need to make a decision.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:15 PM EST

  In my opinion, that makes him look like a murderous usurper, and puts the focus on his guilt/innocence, rather than the larger conflict.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  February 28, 2015 8:23 PM EST

  I've always found the fall to deal the damage in Unrelenting Force.
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  February 28, 2015 8:35 PM EST

  We know he's guilty, though- he killed Torygg in single combat.
  
  If you're an Imperial sympathizer, you're likely to think he was wrong no matter what method he used; it doesn't matter if the duel was fair, because fair or not it was still wrong. If you support the Stormcloaks, you probably either think killing Torygg was a good thing anyway...or that the ends justify the means and if one man had to die for Skyrim to be free, so be it.
  
  If you're neutral and trying to figure out which side to support, I think there are much better, and clearer, arguments than quibbling details we don't actually have access to.