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Discussion: The Grimoire Challenge

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  • Vezrabuto
    Member
     
    October 10, 2018
    Oh wow I just found something out. The Staff steals even Draugr Dreams. It might work on any sleeping enemy.
  • Delta
    Member
     
    October 10, 2018

    Vezrabuto said: Oh wow I just found something out. The Staff steals even Draugr Dreams. It might work on any sleeping enemy.

     

    So Draugr's do dream of Daedric sheep.

  • Justiciar Thorien
    Member
     
    October 11, 2018
    Hmm, guys, how you define a completely good or completely bad character? I tend to play lawful good dudes i.e. those who fight for what they believe to be the greater good, and help others, and (generally) obey the law, but most of them aren't exactly paladins. A paladin is a fellow who serves a god or something like that, and I rarely do such thing. I like playing religious characters but their faith mostly serves as a part of their moral compass rather than a purpose unto itself. And I like them with some flaws, because otherwise they would be boring. But does that make them more grey? I've always thought that "light grey" is more about someone who, say, fights for a good cause, helps and protects innocents, but doesn't mind to pick a pocket of some snobbish rich guy (my DAO Dwarf is this way and I've determined her alignment as neutral good rather than lawful good just because of that). But what about a guy who is all good but... isn't very empathic, so to say? Like, he'll do what is needed to save a person's life even if it means to hurt their feelings or make them hate him. Or maybe he has some habits that are harmless but don't exactly fit into the image of a "saint" guy. Do such things make a character grey or not?
  • Vezrabuto
    Member
     
    October 11, 2018

     

    A saying my DM always told me was "Lawfull Good does not Mean Lawfull Nice" you can be a dick to people but as long as you for example dont punsh them for no reason you are still in Line. Stealing from the rich would be kinda grayish. you are still stealing even if it is from a Douche. But i would say a few steps outside the Line wouldnt be that bad. Stealing a few times is not gonna make you a bad Person ^^ Paladins follow A Rule set of a God in DnD the basics are Dont steal Dont Lie Dont Kill Inocents but thats only to uphold the relationship with the God. So in My opinion its okay to be a little bad, as long as it is not constantly or to much^^ Killing a Village is different than killing a dude on accident because you thought he was dangerous. thats what i consider Light Grey ^^ Flaws are Human and to me a True Lawfull Good Character would be pretty hard to accomplish. ^^

  • Duvain
    Member
     
    October 11, 2018

    @Thorien - I could never play a lawful good character but what I usually play is Chaotic good or a Chaotic Neutral leaning a bit to evil sometimes when needed like stealing if he has the need for food or something that will grant him power but I tend not to go over the top like slaughter anyone in my way to get even a few pennies. What you describe I would say is close to the chaotic good alignment but not exactly. 

  • Justiciar Thorien
    Member
     
    October 11, 2018

    Tbh, I find the "don't lie" part quite stupid. There are many situations when telling the truth can cause much more harm than lying. And does avoiding a question or refusing to answer count as lying too?

    Vezrabuto said:

    Stealing from the rich would be kinda grayish. you are still stealing even if it is from a Douche. But i would say a few steps outside the Line wouldnt be that bad. Stealing a few times is not gonna make you a bad Person ^^ 

    Stealing is a crime, that's obvious. A lawful character won't steal, even from rich arseholes. Though there may be exceptions when the purpose of the theft is not tied with the value of the thing being stolen. Like stealing a thing that would serve as a proof in an investigation or stealing a weapon or artifact from some evil fellow so he won't use it to do harm.

    Also. I think, whether a person who steals may be considered good, strongly depends on many factors, such as what they steal, why, from who, in what situation, and to some extent on the person's background.

    Vezrabuto said:

    Paladins follow A Rule set of a God in DnD the basics are Dont steal Dont Lie Dont Kill Inocents but thats only to uphold the relationship with the God.

    Uh, seems like this is why I've never been very fond of those. Stinks of Church. I really hate it when someone considers himself entitled to do stuff "in the god's name". Disgusts me to no end.

    I mean, when a certain Jarl of Windhelm starts a rebellion because he is against the ban of Talos worship, that's okay with me, well, I may think he's an idiot and/or not very honorable man, but that doesn't have anything to do with religion. On the other hand, had he started the same rebellion saying that Talos wants it, that would be something else entirely. People doing stuff and saying their god gave them the right, ugh, yikes. Even when what they do is not particularly bad.

    Vezrabuto said:

    So in My opinion its okay to be a little bad, as long as it is not constantly or to much^^

    Uh, lol. So if one gets arrested for ber fight only once a month he is still good, eh?)))) Well, tbh I'd label such a guy Neutral Good rather than lawful good. 

    Vezrabuto said:

    Killing a Village is different than killing a dude on accident because you thought he was dangerous. thats what i consider Light Grey ^^ 

    Oh. Are you serious??? Well, with a village it's pretty obvious, but. Killing a person by accident and killing because you thought they were dangerous, that's two entirely different things. "By accident" means unintentionally. Like when you accidentally hit a guard with a fireball while trying to kill a vampire. But... are you saying that a guy who can kill an innocent person only because he thought they were dangerous is still good????

    Vezrabuto said:

    Flaws are Human and to me a True Lawfull Good Character would be pretty hard to accomplish. ^^

    I thought that depends on the kind of flaws? If they don't cause the person to disturb or harm others, how do they make him less good?

    Duvain said:

    @Thorien - I could never play a lawful good character but what I usually play is Chaotic good or a Chaotic Neutral leaning a bit to evil sometimes when needed like stealing if he has the need for food or something that will grant him power but I tend not to go over the top like slaughter anyone in my way to get even a few pennies. What you describe I would say is close to the chaotic good alignment but not exactly. 

    Mmm, this is interesting. I've always thought that Chaotic Good is one who would help innocents and punish bad guys but not always obey the law. Sort of like my vampire Altmer who uses bandits and necromancers as food but would never ever harm an innocent person. Or am I wrong?

    Chaotic Neutral though, isn't that a scary alignment? A fellow who is capable of everything as long as he knows he won't be punished? That type of guy?

  • Feint
     
    October 11, 2018

    I traditionally break down the alignments based on the first word (lawful, chaotic, neutral) and the second word (good, neutral, evil):

    Lawful: Obeys (or is bound to) a set of laws which dictate one's responses.  This can be a religious set of laws (e.g., no murder, no lying, no stealing, helping those in need, etc.), a "band of brothers" set of laws (e.g., murder only the guilty, help those in need, defend the helpless, never hurt a brother and always help them, etc.), or any other laws from some authority.

    Chaotic:  Disdain for obeying the laws.  You act as if there are no laws as you simply justify your own actions.  If the law of the land is murder is wrong, you will justify killing whomever you want.  Laws never govern your responses since they restrict your freedoms.

    Neutral:  You don't care for laws, nor do you actively disobey them.  You will use them to your benefit when it helps, and ignore them when they impede you.  You lean neither toward law or chaos.  You walk balanced on the edge of a knife, doing what seems right, though you still respect authority.

    The second word is the "moral" choice of good, neutral, or evil.

    Good: Protects life, self-sacrificing, "noble"

    Neutral: Usually protects life, won't sacrifice self, usually bound to friends/family (think of animals)

    Evil: Hurts, oppresses, and kills others; sacrifices others to benefit self

    This leads to the traditional nine alignments (see http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html).

     

    Valarie is Lawful Good.  She follows the laws imposed on her by Meridia without wavering.  She protects life and willingly puts herself in harm's way to help others (unless they are necromancers, undead, etc., obviously).  She ignores most other threats (e.g., bandits, wild animals, etc.) unless they attack first.  However, she is very introverted and wary of strangers, large cities, etc. (her quirks, which help define her further).

    PS:  I might need to edit this later for clarity.  It's too early to think straight.  :-)

  • Justiciar Thorien
    Member
     
    October 11, 2018

    Well, seems like I was mostly right in my accession of alignments. Though according to this, my formerly Thalmor vamp appears to be Neutral Good where I considered her Chaotic Good.

    Feint said:

    Valarie is Lawful Good.  She follows the laws imposed on her by Meridia without wavering.  She protects life and willingly puts herself in harm's way to help others (unless they are necromancers, undead, etc., obviously).  She ignores most other threats (e.g., bandits, wild animals, etc.) unless they attack first.  However, she is very introverted and wary of strangers, large cities, etc. (her quirks, which help define her further).

    Seems like some people might consider Valarie not empathic enough and subsequently not "good" enough because of her introvertedness. Just like my main guy. Which I personally think is a total bull, but still, it's a thing.

     

  • Feint
     
    October 11, 2018

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    Seems like some people might consider Valarie not empathic enough and subsequently not "good" enough because of her introvertedness. Just like my main guy. Which I personally think is a total bull, but still, it's a thing.

    Personally, I think that is based on the general misunderstanding of what "introvert" and "extrovert" mean.  I personally am a 100% introvert.  If you're into Meyer's Brigg, I have taken it a few times and always score 100% introvert.  However, many of the people I deal with think I am somewhat extroverted...save my wife.  She knows that I am an introvert through-and-through!  :-)

    An introvert is just a person who draws their energy from within and loses energy when around others.  The more people you are around, the faster your energy level depletes--like running too many apps on your smartphone!  :-)

    An extrovert is a person who draws their energy from the people around them and loses energy when they are alone.  They are clocks that require others to wind them up.  Left alone, they simply wind down.

    Introverts are not necessarily shy people.  They just need some time alone to recharge.  On the flip side, extroverts aren't necessarily empathic people.  They just live off of others.  I call them leeches! (But good and necessary, none the less! :-) )

  • Feint
     
    October 11, 2018

    Justiciar Thorien said:

    Well, seems like I was mostly right in my accession of alignments. Though according to this, my formerly Thalmor vamp appears to be Neutral Good where I considered her Chaotic Good.

    On a related note, I almost never play chaotic characters.  I lean toward lawful and neutral.  I just can't get into a character who walks up to Jarl Balgruuf and talks down to him, good or not.  Maybe I need to build a character who truly is "free-spirited."  Hmm...


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