Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

The Ancient Nordic Pantheon

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  @Phil, are you sure it was really peace? Only Nords and Imperials think so. Everyone else hated that Empire.

  You got a sauce for that?

  @Phil, are you sure it was really peace? Only Nords and Imperials think so. Everyone else hated that Empire.

  You got a sauce for that?

• Justiciar Thorien

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  Lol)) Well, they did conquer everyone else, no? People usually don't like conquerors.

  Lol)) Well, they did conquer everyone else, no? People usually don't like conquerors.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  Indeed. Just ask the Redguards how they felt about the Dominion Presence in Hammerfell. Wait, didn't you guys lose that war?

  Indeed. Just ask the Redguards how they felt about the Dominion Presence in Hammerfell. Wait, didn't you guys lose that war?

• Justiciar Thorien

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  And how they felt about Tiber Septim conquering Hammerfell? Something tells me they weren't very happy about that.

  The Dominion lost that war, but now Hamerfell is on its own and not a part of the Empire. So it's not a total fail)))

  And how they felt about Tiber Septim conquering Hammerfell? Something tells me they weren't very happy about that.

  The Dominion lost that war, but now Hamerfell is on its own and not a part of the Empire. So it's not a total fail)))

• The Wing

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  Thorien, you're making a bad point. If what you say is true then there would never be peace under Dominion rule either because they too are conquerors trying to shackle Tamriel.

  We know from the ES games that traditional and culture-driven peoples responded very negatively to Imperial rule. Conquerors rob people of themselves. Some are fine (or even thriving) with the change, like House Hlaalu, the Forebears and Imperialised Nords. However, it always ends in disquiet and, eventually, civil war.

  How has Talos served Tamriel? Temporary peace. I'm sure he didn't expect more than that. All peace is temporary. Now Talos is causing war in Skyrim. You could argue that it wasn't Talos who caused the war, but the Thalmor and the crumbling Empire. But as long as there are powerful cowards, Talos will not unite men.

  We're thinking about this from a loreful standpoint - well, let's try thinking through the nature of people. Unless the Thalmor slaughtered everyone, their reign would not last long before everyone got thoroughly fed up with them. And hey, I won't put it past them to try global genocide, but I don't think they are powerful enough. After all, their youngsters are almost as fed up with the Thalmor's restrictions as the rest of the world.

  (Note: I know very little about TES lore. I'm just tossing my pence into the equation in case something intelligent may pop out of my fingers.)

  Thorien, you're making a bad point. If what you say is true then there would never be peace under Dominion rule either because they too are conquerors trying to shackle Tamriel.

  We know from the ES games that traditional and culture-driven peoples responded very negatively to Imperial rule. Conquerors rob people of themselves. Some are fine (or even thriving) with the change, like House Hlaalu, the Forebears and Imperialised Nords. However, it always ends in disquiet and, eventually, civil war.

  How has Talos served Tamriel? Temporary peace. I'm sure he didn't expect more than that. All peace is temporary. Now Talos is causing war in Skyrim. You could argue that it wasn't Talos who caused the war, but the Thalmor and the crumbling Empire. But as long as there are powerful cowards, Talos will not unite men.

  We're thinking about this from a loreful standpoint - well, let's try thinking through the nature of people. Unless the Thalmor slaughtered everyone, their reign would not last long before everyone got thoroughly fed up with them. And hey, I won't put it past them to try global genocide, but I don't think they are powerful enough. After all, their youngsters are almost as fed up with the Thalmor's restrictions as the rest of the world.

  (Note: I know very little about TES lore. I'm just tossing my pence into the equation in case something intelligent may pop out of my fingers.)

• Justiciar Thorien

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  My point is not that the Thalmor aren't conquerors, they are, and definitely the humans aren't going to like it, at least the first few generations. But anyway it will be better if a cultured race like Altmer will rule over Tamriel than some warmongering humans. A race led by those most wise (priests and scholars) is more fit to rule than whose whose leaders are best killers.

  My point is not that the Thalmor aren't conquerors, they are, and definitely the humans aren't going to like it, at least the first few generations. But anyway it will be better if a cultured race like Altmer will rule over Tamriel than some warmongering humans. A race led by those most wise (priests and scholars) is more fit to rule than whose whose leaders are best killers.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  The Treaty of Stros M'kai was actually favourable to the Redguards in the end. The forebears invited Septim's legions because they were losing the civil war with the crowns. It can be argued they were happy to see Tiber supporting their cause. The crowns will tell a different story of course.

  Rancid you make some great points, never be afraid of the lore group  I am just playing with Thuri, the style was supposed to come across as propaganda. Plus I know she gives as good as she gets  I am reluctant to blame Talos for the Skyrim civil war as that is on Ulfric 

  The Treaty of Stros M'kai was actually favourable to the Redguards in the end. The forebears invited Septim's legions because they were losing the civil war with the crowns. It can be argued they were happy to see Tiber supporting their cause. The crowns will tell a different story of course.

  Rancid you make some great points, never be afraid of the lore group  I am just playing with Thuri, the style was supposed to come across as propaganda. Plus I know she gives as good as she gets  I am reluctant to blame Talos for the Skyrim civil war as that is on Ulfric 

• Justiciar Thorien

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  Knowing a bit about the way Redguards are (I have happened to study some of their lore)))), I think either the Forebears or the Crowns wouldn't be pleased with anyone ruling over them.

  Knowing a bit about the way Redguards are (I have happened to study some of their lore)))), I think either the Forebears or the Crowns wouldn't be pleased with anyone ruling over them.

• Tom

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  That stuff never went away though, did it? I mean, Shezarr and the Divines says that the Nords would have been angry with the absolute removal of Shor and so accepted Shezarr as the missing god.

  Shezarr is still barely mentioned and not openly worshipped, and hasn't been since the Alessians removed him to appease the elves. It proves the point that the Nords don't let go of the old ways very easily.

  So we have evidence that they accepted the Imperial Faith all the way back in the 1E 240's. That is five hundred years before Jurgen's day. So, from that perspective, it is harder to imagine that the Nords clung onto their old Pantheon and only took to the new ways in the last two centuries

  Is it? Varieties of Faith in Tamriel still lists the old Nordic Pantheon as the Nords current faith back in the Second Era, when it shows up in ESO.

  Varieties of faith in the Empire is current up until the Third Era since it includes Tiber Septim as a deity, and the Nords still worship their old pantheon according to it.

  (Albeit they're signed author is the same person named after MK. )

  That stuff never went away though, did it? I mean, Shezarr and the Divines says that the Nords would have been angry with the absolute removal of Shor and so accepted Shezarr as the missing god.

  Shezarr is still barely mentioned and not openly worshipped, and hasn't been since the Alessians removed him to appease the elves. It proves the point that the Nords don't let go of the old ways very easily.

  So we have evidence that they accepted the Imperial Faith all the way back in the 1E 240's. That is five hundred years before Jurgen's day. So, from that perspective, it is harder to imagine that the Nords clung onto their old Pantheon and only took to the new ways in the last two centuries

  Is it? Varieties of Faith in Tamriel still lists the old Nordic Pantheon as the Nords current faith back in the Second Era, when it shows up in ESO.

  Varieties of faith in the Empire is current up until the Third Era since it includes Tiber Septim as a deity, and the Nords still worship their old pantheon according to it.

  (Albeit they're signed author is the same person named after MK. )

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  February 26, 2016

  That book is the very rub, isn't it? I mean, all we are really doing here is trying to find a moment in time where the Imperial Eight became popular enough to have shrines built for them in Skyrim. Even though VoF says Stuhn is venerated you'll be hard pressed to find a shrine to him. The halls of the dead are all dedicated to Arkay and Orkey, Herma Mora and Maloch are never mentioned.

  All in game evidence points to The Eight and One being established in Skyrim for sometime. Now I am with you, think it's a damn shame so what my aim is here is to find a way of getting that dev doc and old Nordic pantheon back into TES V so finding when it fell out of favour is useful. I admit that I find the Oblivion crisis as the catalyst for this slightly underwhelming based as it is on the words of one Bruma npc at a time where everyone thought Alduin was the Nordic Aka and would need to see the entire sales pitch, but I agree that the Jurgen theory is also ropey as it largely supposition.

  As for VoF in the Empire it was written by MK although he did also say that the in universe author was shared by others and he was not responsible for the name.

  That book is the very rub, isn't it? I mean, all we are really doing here is trying to find a moment in time where the Imperial Eight became popular enough to have shrines built for them in Skyrim. Even though VoF says Stuhn is venerated you'll be hard pressed to find a shrine to him. The halls of the dead are all dedicated to Arkay and Orkey, Herma Mora and Maloch are never mentioned.

  All in game evidence points to The Eight and One being established in Skyrim for sometime. Now I am with you, think it's a damn shame so what my aim is here is to find a way of getting that dev doc and old Nordic pantheon back into TES V so finding when it fell out of favour is useful. I admit that I find the Oblivion crisis as the catalyst for this slightly underwhelming based as it is on the words of one Bruma npc at a time where everyone thought Alduin was the Nordic Aka and would need to see the entire sales pitch, but I agree that the Jurgen theory is also ropey as it largely supposition.

  As for VoF in the Empire it was written by MK although he did also say that the in universe author was shared by others and he was not responsible for the name.