Is it all Altmer though? I don't agree, well entirely, which is why I was harping on the complete paragraph, Thorien, my apologies if I came across as attacky. Wasn't my intention. *hugs*.  I do think it is the general consensus among most Altmer and certainly within the ranks of the Thalmor. It may just be me being very picky about generalizing in general. LOL. 

To the Altmer, Lorkhan (who they view as more a limit than a nature) is the most unholy of all higher powers, as they believe he forever broke their connection to the spirit plane.^{[1][6][14][2]} That their stories say Trinimac defeated Lorkhan and tore out his Heart is little consolation, and they still believe sadness is "the best response to the Sundering".^[15] Their wish is to return to the spirit realm, but Lorkhan is the demon that hinders their way; to them Nirn is a prison, an illusion to escape. Others, while accepting that Nirn is a cruel place full of mental anguish, think that Lorkhan created the world as the testing ground for transcendence; to them the spirit realm was already a prison, and true escape is now finally possible.^[2]

It doesn't specify the "Others". Yes, I agree that Dunmer have this view definitely, but Altmer are at the head of the paragraph, so I always thought that you could interpret "others" rather loosely, including other Altmer. Altmer have their dissidents too. Those that do not share the typical beliefs. Rynandor the Bold was killed very much for that. What are the views of the psijics, they seem respond to change and support TLD in his/her endeavors should they join the college. 

They believe that no force is more sacred than change, and while it should be embraced, it must also be carefully guided to avoid "oegnithr", or "bad change"

Do they consider Lorkhan good or bad change? 

Traps himself in the cave so that others may succeed. Very Christ-like, no? You can't help the connection. The LDB, the second coming. Alduin Satan. I'm sorry, I just look at things with this sort of generic filter. It is a situation in a lot of religious myths and legends. 

But blah, I just realized something. Are we still talking about the Champion of Cyrodiil? I'm a little confused, and I suspect I need more coffee. No, for some reason, I don't see Shezzarine so much with the CoC. Could well be my own bias, however, as I have a what I view as a Shezzarine alive and kicking some ass at the same time, though I think that Phil has established, at least to me, that we can have more than one running about. Beside, heavily implied that the CoC becomes Sheogorath. Why would Lorkhan do that to himself, unless he has a fondness for cheese. 

I was afraid it was me who seemed attacky)))

I think both sides are right. Lorkhan is limitation, he did put them into more limitation, but they were already in a prison then, so it's not really a change. They just changed one prison for another. They seem to be mistaken in two things:  1. the spirit realm in in fact a prison too, and 2. sitting there and being sad won't solve anything.

Altmer have their dissidents too. Those that do not share the typical beliefs. Rynandor the Bold was killed very much for that.

Whoa! I thought he was killed because he said that it was really Martin who ended the Oblivion Crysis (which was against the Thalmor propaganda)...

What are the views of the psijics, they seem respond to change and support TLD in his/her endeavors should they join the college. 

Well, the psijics seem to keep to the Old Ways, and I suspect that support the Dragonborn only because their purposes coincide that time. I wonder though, do they have some way to predict the future?

Do they consider Lorkhan good or bad change? 

I think they see him the way he is, just change. Change fir the sake of change, be it good or bad, it's his nature. That's why I think that worshipping him is destructive. Psijics don't worship him, do they?

Traps himself in the cave so that others may succeed. 

I doubt it's the case. I have a feeling that he thinks of himself in the first place, the others just come as a bonus) It's just like in the Anti-CHIM article you gave me. And TLD definitely wouldn't be the second, more like twenty second, even if he was a Shezzarine at all (which I am now sure he isn't). I suspect that there were more Shezzarines and Dragonborns than we know, they just didn't make it into any songs)

It seems to me more like the ancient Scandinavian religion than the Christianity. And maybe it's just me, but I 'd be really disappointed if it is really that standard.

Hmm, I was talking about every PC, not just the CoC. I wonder what happened to the original Sheogorath, did he exit the cave?)))

I know full-well that he/she's not the second coming. It was just an analogy to bring up the similarities. And many religions, not just Christianity, use this formula.  

I was using Rynandor the Bold to illustrate that Altmer do have contrary views to the establishment and that Altmer that possess such contrary views usually meet with punishment/exile/death as was his case. Lathenil of Sunhold is another example. Their thoughts on Lorkhan are not known and is immaterial to what I was illustrating by using their examples. They either meet that end, or, they leave, which is what Veloth did, an Aldmer who left the Isles because essentially he rejected their decadent culture. 

I think this is where I take a bow and exit this thread. Honestly the concepts are growing beyond my limited understanding of the lore, or at least how far I am willing to go with regard to their understanding, and frankly, I think you and I have reached a sort of stalemate.

I think TLD is a Shezzarine and you do not and both of us have debated the case in an intelligent, friendly manner bringing up good points. You're not convinced, you won't be and that's okay. I will not be convinced otherwise. I personally embrace the concept, regardless of the race of the PC. In fact, I think one that is not of the races of Man only enhances the lore and is, in my eyes, presents itself as a second sort of transcendence. It reflects the evolution of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar's path as he wanders. I won't get into the significance of both Auri-El and Hermeus Mora in the dlcs, which I think, is no accident. The great thing about these discussions, however, is that with the evidence presented, two people can come away from this with opposing viewpoints. 

Had a blast, lol. I'm just too tired and too busy to keep up anymore.  I need to be writing and doing my course prep work.

 It was just an analogy to bring up the similarities. And many religions, not just Christianity, use this formula.  

Yes, I get it. The thing is that such an analogy puts Lorkhan in a position of a savior, a messiah. Which, I think, is not exactly he case.

I was using Rynandor the Bold to illustrate that Altmer do have contrary views to the establishment and that Altmer that possess such contrary views usually meet with punishment/exile/death as was his case. 

This is true, though I think everyone who is going against the estsblihed system is risking to end up this way, be that an Altmer or any other. Do you think Imperials didn't kill people who were plotting against the Empire?

As for Veloth... did anyone stop him and his supporters then they left? And there is Boethia, whose presense complicates thing to entirely new level)

 Honestly the concepts are growing beyond my limited understanding of the lore, or at least how far I am willing to go with regard to their understanding, and frankly, I think you and I have reached a sort of stalemate.

Aw, stalemates are no good. And I think that your understanding of the lore is much better than mine) I really want to understand your point of view.

A Dragonborn being a Shezzarine inevitably brings Talos into the picture (I mean Talos the god, not Hjalti the man), since he is both. Such a Dragonborn would be a champion of Talos more than of Akatosh or Lorkhan, wouldn't he?

But what does that mean? What is the purpose of Talos the god? We discussed here his importance in becoming a god, but what he adds to the universe when he already is a god?

In fact, I think one that is not of the races of Man only enhances the lore and is, in my eyes, presents itself as a second sort of transcendence. It reflects the evolution of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar's path as he wanders. 

Yes, this is totally true)))) But again, where is Talos in this picture?

It's a typo, Thorien. Forgot Talos in the list. 

Lorhkan/Shor/Shezzar/Talos and why not?

Lorhkan/Shor/Shezzar/Talos/TLD

That cluster of names all sort of represents the same thing to me. I just got tired of listing names. My apologies if I was being unclear. Variants on the quest for the Missing God to find his place. An Elvish version of that would be exceedingly interesting to me and then blah, why not throw some dragon stuff in there too.

Giant, mega, uber oversoul of everything and then in the end make him Auri-El's champion with the weapon that shot the heart in the first place and then make him Mora's Champion which is such a delicious way to end it all. The wanderer finds his home with fate and hidden knowledge. It is all tied together. The world can now end. Cue Alduin fulfilling his proper role. 

Ah, I see) This is beautiful. Lorkhan's incarnation being champion of Auri-El and resolving Auri-El's problem that his 'firstborn son' causes (after all Lorkhan is Auri-El's kinda twin)))) And Hermaeus Mora... of course he would want a share of this)))

Only Talos throws a kind of disbalance here, because after he replaced Lorkhan, there seem to be no missing god anymore, all the gods are in place. Or not?

In theory, Talos is missing because his worship is banned. If a god is no longer worshiped, what happens to that god? The trend is that they are typically forgotten, discarded. 

There is unfinished business IMO and Shor is missing from his seat as well. Perhaps Talos needs to find a new form that will be more readily worshiped? A compromise. Something a bit more inclusive. I don't know.  

I always liked to believe that god without worshippers is a god without aspect. That it´s the mortals who define their god, chaining him with their belief and prayers, to fit their image and needs. 

God without worshippers is a free god, unbound god who can choose his own path. Until people show up again and make a trophy of him, just to be put on display. 

But I doubt it works this way in TES. It probably would be something like god losing his power, or maybe his life, but I really don´t know. I´ve never delved much into the lore of Gods because I´m not very fond of them. 

But there are people worshipping Talos, despite the ban! There are lots of Talos-worshippers all over Skyrim, there are shines and temples of him, and Heimskr in Whiterun (nd I'm sure he is not the only one). Some time must pass before people really would stop worshipping Talos, at least 2-3 generations.

I don't know what happens to the gods if they aren't worshipped, though I doubt that they become ever reincarnating wanderers like Lorkhan...

Actually when I think of it, why nothing happens to the Daedra then? I can't say they are widely worshipped. And the Aedra, since they were involved in the Creation, I have a feeling that they would keep their aspect even without worshippers, or am I wrong?