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Knights of the Elder Scrolls

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  December 22, 2015

  I didn´t mean that you used Illusion to murder someone, but to "arrange" a duel. I was using something similar with my Goldpact Knight, using Emperor´s Voice. Walk into a room, cast it and then challenge the bandit leader to duel. And you have to kill him and get out before the spell wears out 

  And Hound is an excelent example of morally grey character. He didn´t like to be called "Ser" but nevertheless, standing very close to the king and then later becoming one of the White Cloaks pretty much made him a knight. 

  I didn´t mean that you used Illusion to murder someone, but to "arrange" a duel. I was using something similar with my Goldpact Knight, using Emperor´s Voice. Walk into a room, cast it and then challenge the bandit leader to duel. And you have to kill him and get out before the spell wears out 

  And Hound is an excelent example of morally grey character. He didn´t like to be called "Ser" but nevertheless, standing very close to the king and then later becoming one of the White Cloaks pretty much made him a knight. 

• Paws

  

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  December 26, 2015

  Been thinking about your Ordinator discussion point. I'm going with a "no, they are not knights" position but am happy to see that claim contested. Although they are an order, they are primarily a religious one rather than a chivalric one. Buoyant Armigers ,on the other hand, probably are knights as they are a military organisation utterly devoted to a single patron, Vivec. I am happy to see that claim contested too.

  Been thinking about your Ordinator discussion point. I'm going with a "no, they are not knights" position but am happy to see that claim contested. Although they are an order, they are primarily a religious one rather than a chivalric one. Buoyant Armigers ,on the other hand, probably are knights as they are a military organisation utterly devoted to a single patron, Vivec. I am happy to see that claim contested too.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  December 26, 2015

  And here I thought this discussion has already died. Seems like you really love your knights, Phil 

  I might have one argument. Knights of the Nine. Why they can be knights while their follow all Divines (which makes them religious order as well) and Ordinators who follow Tribunal and pretty much do all Daedra hunting on Vvardenfell?

  I mean, these two groups are somewhat similar. Yes, Ordinators are more inclined to that religious thing, but also note the difference in numbers. Ordinators are...almost everywhere, and they have multiple roles. Peacekeepers, guards, protectors of pilgrims, hunters of Daedra worshippers. 

  Armigers are certainly knights, on that we agree. Poet-warriors right? If there is a group between Dunmer that has the most chivalric direction, it´s Buyoant Armigers.

  And here I thought this discussion has already died. Seems like you really love your knights, Phil 

  I might have one argument. Knights of the Nine. Why they can be knights while their follow all Divines (which makes them religious order as well) and Ordinators who follow Tribunal and pretty much do all Daedra hunting on Vvardenfell?

  I mean, these two groups are somewhat similar. Yes, Ordinators are more inclined to that religious thing, but also note the difference in numbers. Ordinators are...almost everywhere, and they have multiple roles. Peacekeepers, guards, protectors of pilgrims, hunters of Daedra worshippers. 

  Armigers are certainly knights, on that we agree. Poet-warriors right? If there is a group between Dunmer that has the most chivalric direction, it´s Buyoant Armigers.

• Golden Fool

  

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  December 26, 2015

  When it comes to the Knights of the Nine, while as a group they follow each Divine, on an individual level each knight is dedicated to a single Divine which is more inline with the traditional knights. 

  As for the Ordinators, they like the Redoran Guard are closer to being a personal military for the Tribunal and House Redoran respectively. Since as you said they're everywhere and fill those multiple roles.

  When it comes to the Knights of the Nine, while as a group they follow each Divine, on an individual level each knight is dedicated to a single Divine which is more inline with the traditional knights. 

  As for the Ordinators, they like the Redoran Guard are closer to being a personal military for the Tribunal and House Redoran respectively. Since as you said they're everywhere and fill those multiple roles.

• Paws

  

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  December 26, 2015

  Maybe the distinction lies in the inclusivity of the Ordinators as part of the Temple? I mean, many traditional TES religious factions have a knighthood connected with them, such as The Order of the Hour for Akatosh and Golden's Knight's of the Circle for Arkay. However, these orders are considered a separate sub-faction if you will and have a distinct hierarchy outside the temple proper.

  In the Ordinators' case it seems they are fully absorbed into the Temple faction proper. So while they are a military branch of the Tribunal Temple they are so much a part of it that it is hard to view them as a separate Order. Could this be connected to the House system as Golds suggests? If the majority of Ordinators come from Indoril or Redoran and thus owe allegiance to the same religion but different houses, maybe also having them part of a separate sub-faction of the Temple becomes too complicated too quickly.

  Just spit-balling here but there does seem to be a subtle difference.

  The Knights of the Nine consider themselves to be a knightly order which just happens to consider their patrons to be the Divines. Maybe the distinction between them and the Ordinators is that the latter group don't consider themselves to be a chivalric group but rather the Temple's enforcers? As such they are as much a part of the Temple as the priests are.

  Maybe the distinction lies in the inclusivity of the Ordinators as part of the Temple? I mean, many traditional TES religious factions have a knighthood connected with them, such as The Order of the Hour for Akatosh and Golden's Knight's of the Circle for Arkay. However, these orders are considered a separate sub-faction if you will and have a distinct hierarchy outside the temple proper.

  In the Ordinators' case it seems they are fully absorbed into the Temple faction proper. So while they are a military branch of the Tribunal Temple they are so much a part of it that it is hard to view them as a separate Order. Could this be connected to the House system as Golds suggests? If the majority of Ordinators come from Indoril or Redoran and thus owe allegiance to the same religion but different houses, maybe also having them part of a separate sub-faction of the Temple becomes too complicated too quickly.

  Just spit-balling here but there does seem to be a subtle difference.

  The Knights of the Nine consider themselves to be a knightly order which just happens to consider their patrons to be the Divines. Maybe the distinction between them and the Ordinators is that the latter group don't consider themselves to be a chivalric group but rather the Temple's enforcers? As such they are as much a part of the Temple as the priests are.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  December 26, 2015

  Then maybe the question should have been: Can Ordinators be considered Crusaders? Because the picture you´re drawing here seems to indicate just that. 

  Then maybe the question should have been: Can Ordinators be considered Crusaders? Because the picture you´re drawing here seems to indicate just that. 

• Paws

  

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  January 1, 2016

  Been thinking about your Imperial Legion discussion point. The upper ranks of the Legion proper are called knights even before any mention of The Order of the Dragon. I've been trying to connect this with the Mane's Legion. Do you think it is too much of a leap to think the Khajiit incorporated some of the Imperial Legion's rank structure?

  I mean, in the sources the Mane is protected by a Warrior Guard, hundreds strong and ESO brings with it mention of the Mane's Legion. Could those members of the Warrior Guard or officers of the Legion be considered knights?

  Been thinking about your Imperial Legion discussion point. The upper ranks of the Legion proper are called knights even before any mention of The Order of the Dragon. I've been trying to connect this with the Mane's Legion. Do you think it is too much of a leap to think the Khajiit incorporated some of the Imperial Legion's rank structure?

  I mean, in the sources the Mane is protected by a Warrior Guard, hundreds strong and ESO brings with it mention of the Mane's Legion. Could those members of the Warrior Guard or officers of the Legion be considered knights?

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  January 1, 2016

  Hm. I have absolutely zero knowledge about this Mane Legion, so I can´t really tell, Phil. I hear of them for the first time now.

  And can royal guards be considered knights? Well, we agreed that Blades can be knights and they are also royal guard/bodyguards of the Emperor. But as I said, I don´t know much about Khajiit, so I´m not sure I can form an opinion here. 

  Hm. I have absolutely zero knowledge about this Mane Legion, so I can´t really tell, Phil. I hear of them for the first time now.

  And can royal guards be considered knights? Well, we agreed that Blades can be knights and they are also royal guard/bodyguards of the Emperor. But as I said, I don´t know much about Khajiit, so I´m not sure I can form an opinion here. 

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  January 1, 2016

  Thanks Karves. I think there is zero knowledge to be had unless someone has been diligently playing ESO's Khajiit related quests and turned up some nuggets of info. The mention of the Mane's Legion appears once in a book called The Eagle and the Cat.

  And can royal guards be considered knights? Well, we agreed that Blades can be knights and they are also royal guard/bodyguards of the Emperor. But as I said, I don´t know much about Khajiit, so I´m not sure I can form an opinion here. 

  The difficulty I'm finding is that to the stereotypical Khajiit a chivalric code of honour wouldn't make sense in the same way it does to us. How to portray the Khajiit version of this concept is the tricky part and even if they would consider themselves as knights or think it a foolish human idea.

  Thanks Karves. I think there is zero knowledge to be had unless someone has been diligently playing ESO's Khajiit related quests and turned up some nuggets of info. The mention of the Mane's Legion appears once in a book called The Eagle and the Cat.

  And can royal guards be considered knights? Well, we agreed that Blades can be knights and they are also royal guard/bodyguards of the Emperor. But as I said, I don´t know much about Khajiit, so I´m not sure I can form an opinion here. 

  The difficulty I'm finding is that to the stereotypical Khajiit a chivalric code of honour wouldn't make sense in the same way it does to us. How to portray the Khajiit version of this concept is the tricky part and even if they would consider themselves as knights or think it a foolish human idea.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  January 2, 2016

  Exactly, mate. I find it really hard to imagine Argonians or Khajiit as knights because they´re so alien to me. What do we know anyways? Shadowscale can be a knight for Argonians for example.

  But if we were talking in game Khajiit knight. I would imagine some cat in heavy armor, two-handed, devoted to some deity. That would be a Khajiit Knight in my head. 

  And I´ve been thinking about your question, if Khajiit incorporated some of the Legion´s rank structure. 

  Let´s take a look at this way. Legion in TES is very Cyrodiilic thing in my book. Because their armies have numbers, like "Fifth Legion". Legion itself is another name  for army (so it replaces the Fifth Army for example) and usually comes with it´s own rank structure, slighly different from typical Army. 

  So it all depends if Khajiit borrowed it from Imperials with ranks and whatnots, or if they just made their own legion in Khajiit way. 

  Exactly, mate. I find it really hard to imagine Argonians or Khajiit as knights because they´re so alien to me. What do we know anyways? Shadowscale can be a knight for Argonians for example.

  But if we were talking in game Khajiit knight. I would imagine some cat in heavy armor, two-handed, devoted to some deity. That would be a Khajiit Knight in my head. 

  And I´ve been thinking about your question, if Khajiit incorporated some of the Legion´s rank structure. 

  Let´s take a look at this way. Legion in TES is very Cyrodiilic thing in my book. Because their armies have numbers, like "Fifth Legion". Legion itself is another name  for army (so it replaces the Fifth Army for example) and usually comes with it´s own rank structure, slighly different from typical Army. 

  So it all depends if Khajiit borrowed it from Imperials with ranks and whatnots, or if they just made their own legion in Khajiit way.