Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

Velothic Commentaries On The Dwemer And Orsimer

• The Long-Chapper

  

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  January 22, 2016

  Yeah, I know. I guess what I'm driving at is that the differences of source materials and discrepancies can be due to what's happened in Tamriel. I imagine libraries are  not preserved if damaged. I mean, how much art, writings, and artifacts have we lost due to war and natural disaster? There are even sources that suggest that some of the timelines were deliberately fudged and you get a sense that this stuff is so sketchy at times. 

  I'm not disputing the above at all. Anything really is possible. Just as long as Trinimac tore that heart out, Imma good. 

  Super curious to see where this conversation goes. 

  Yeah, I know. I guess what I'm driving at is that the differences of source materials and discrepancies can be due to what's happened in Tamriel. I imagine libraries are  not preserved if damaged. I mean, how much art, writings, and artifacts have we lost due to war and natural disaster? There are even sources that suggest that some of the timelines were deliberately fudged and you get a sense that this stuff is so sketchy at times. 

  I'm not disputing the above at all. Anything really is possible. Just as long as Trinimac tore that heart out, Imma good. 

  Super curious to see where this conversation goes. 

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  January 22, 2016

  It´s just...argh...this is way above my head. Only thing I can do is to throw sticks under your feet, Veloth and I bet that´s something we both don´t want. 

  As I said earlier, there are some things that point in this direction. I´m actually quite cool with Orcs being Dwemer, there are several things that suggest that when you think about it, but I just can´t...accept the creation story, the whole Trinimac/Dumac/Malacath thing.

  Not that I wouldn´t want to, but I just don´t understand it enough to accept it.

  But I´ll keep looking around the lore for something that might bring more clues to the connection of Orcs and Dwemer.

  It´s just...argh...this is way above my head. Only thing I can do is to throw sticks under your feet, Veloth and I bet that´s something we both don´t want. 

  As I said earlier, there are some things that point in this direction. I´m actually quite cool with Orcs being Dwemer, there are several things that suggest that when you think about it, but I just can´t...accept the creation story, the whole Trinimac/Dumac/Malacath thing.

  Not that I wouldn´t want to, but I just don´t understand it enough to accept it.

  But I´ll keep looking around the lore for something that might bring more clues to the connection of Orcs and Dwemer.

• Paws

  

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  January 26, 2016

  I am kind of in two minds about this idea Veloth, which probably makes me a damned hypocrite. On one hand I am prepared to accept that the Dragon Break of Red Mountain was the apotheosis of the Tribunal, the differing timelines, personal histories and events of those three are evidence enough for it to be beyond doubt. I am also prepared to accept - advocate even - the idea that the Chimer's skin was the same as the Dunmer's because of that Dragon Break.

  What I do find hard to swallow is that the same break was the genesis of the Orsimer. I totally agree with all the similarities you mention but in my mind they exist for another reason. I totally accept that the accounts of Trinimac's Transformation could well be just allegories for a complicated socio-political shift in elven society, but unless I am very confused you are proposing an allegory within an allegory.

  the tale of Boethiah eating Trinimac was a fable describing the absorbing of Dwemereth in to Chimer society. Boethiah being the representation of the Chimer or Nerevar and Trinimac representing the Dwemer or Dumac. This is backed up in Five Songs of King Wulfharth that names Nerevar as the Son of Boethiah and Dumac as Dumalacath Dwarf-Orc.

  I think this is where our point of view diverges. I think the reason Dumac is called Dumalacath in Five Songs is not because Trinimac represents the Dwemer in an allegorical account, but because Dumac is playing the role of Trinimac in a Dragon Break. Then Wulfharth said: "Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

  The role of Trinimac at Convention was crucial. If we have a look at what Trinimac did and the other players in that myth then juxtapose the events of The Battle of Red Mountain over the top, I believe we see the real reasons why Dumac is called Dumalacath. The events just witnessed by the jills were close enough to the events of the Dawn era that when the Dragon snaps back together, Aka believes these things happened in the mythic stories of the Dawn.

  I am kind of in two minds about this idea Veloth, which probably makes me a damned hypocrite. On one hand I am prepared to accept that the Dragon Break of Red Mountain was the apotheosis of the Tribunal, the differing timelines, personal histories and events of those three are evidence enough for it to be beyond doubt. I am also prepared to accept - advocate even - the idea that the Chimer's skin was the same as the Dunmer's because of that Dragon Break.

  What I do find hard to swallow is that the same break was the genesis of the Orsimer. I totally agree with all the similarities you mention but in my mind they exist for another reason. I totally accept that the accounts of Trinimac's Transformation could well be just allegories for a complicated socio-political shift in elven society, but unless I am very confused you are proposing an allegory within an allegory.

  the tale of Boethiah eating Trinimac was a fable describing the absorbing of Dwemereth in to Chimer society. Boethiah being the representation of the Chimer or Nerevar and Trinimac representing the Dwemer or Dumac. This is backed up in Five Songs of King Wulfharth that names Nerevar as the Son of Boethiah and Dumac as Dumalacath Dwarf-Orc.

  I think this is where our point of view diverges. I think the reason Dumac is called Dumalacath in Five Songs is not because Trinimac represents the Dwemer in an allegorical account, but because Dumac is playing the role of Trinimac in a Dragon Break. Then Wulfharth said: "Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?" And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

  The role of Trinimac at Convention was crucial. If we have a look at what Trinimac did and the other players in that myth then juxtapose the events of The Battle of Red Mountain over the top, I believe we see the real reasons why Dumac is called Dumalacath. The events just witnessed by the jills were close enough to the events of the Dawn era that when the Dragon snaps back together, Aka believes these things happened in the mythic stories of the Dawn.

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  January 26, 2016

  Phil, just remember I´m just simple Orc. I don´t understand a word you just said.

  But let´s see if I´m getting it right. You´re saying that Dumac actually isn´t Trinimac/Malacath, he´s just playing Trinimac´s role in Dragon Break? But what Trinimac´s role he´s playing?

  That´s the only thing I understood. The rest is jibberish to me.

  Phil, just remember I´m just simple Orc. I don´t understand a word you just said.

  But let´s see if I´m getting it right. You´re saying that Dumac actually isn´t Trinimac/Malacath, he´s just playing Trinimac´s role in Dragon Break? But what Trinimac´s role he´s playing?

  That´s the only thing I understood. The rest is jibberish to me.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

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  January 26, 2016

  Well that's not the only time Dumac has been called that, he's also called it in the Tale of Dro'Zira and the 36 Lessons.

  Well that's not the only time Dumac has been called that, he's also called it in the Tale of Dro'Zira and the 36 Lessons.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  January 26, 2016

  I don't fault the logic and am with you totally  - Dumac is Dumalacth for a reason, but the reason isn't allegorical, rather it is mythically symbolic. Other than that I think this article presents some very good points, Vel

  Don't worry Karves, you've got the gist  In the myth Trinimac plays a very important role in Lorkhan losing his divine essence.

  During the battle of Red Mountain Duma(malacath)c plays a very important role in an event 100% connected to Lorkhan's divine essence. I believe that if we compare and contrast the two, there will be more similiarities than not.

  When the Jills tell Aka what happened while he was broken, Aka tries to retcon all the events. Because that which the jills tell him sounds so much like that which he already knows he says, "ok that seems legit." Thus everything retroactively happens, ALMSIVI are gods and always have been in this new amalgamated timeline.

  I don't fault the logic and am with you totally  - Dumac is Dumalacth for a reason, but the reason isn't allegorical, rather it is mythically symbolic. Other than that I think this article presents some very good points, Vel

  Don't worry Karves, you've got the gist  In the myth Trinimac plays a very important role in Lorkhan losing his divine essence.

  During the battle of Red Mountain Duma(malacath)c plays a very important role in an event 100% connected to Lorkhan's divine essence. I believe that if we compare and contrast the two, there will be more similiarities than not.

  When the Jills tell Aka what happened while he was broken, Aka tries to retcon all the events. Because that which the jills tell him sounds so much like that which he already knows he says, "ok that seems legit." Thus everything retroactively happens, ALMSIVI are gods and always have been in this new amalgamated timeline.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  January 26, 2016

  Hm. Still nothing. The problem might be at your transmitter...

  Just give me some time to absorb this. Week or two...

  Hm. Still nothing. The problem might be at your transmitter...

  Just give me some time to absorb this. Week or two...

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  January 26, 2016

  Ok. Try: Vivec, Sotha Sil and Alma = mortal; Mess with heart = gods? True, False or Maybe?

  If maybe:

  Vivec, Sotha Sil and Alma = Mortal; Mess with heart = cause Dragon Break. Events of Dragon Break happen in the Dawn Era = period of non-linear time. Events of Battle of Red Mountain = recreation of mythic story with all the players assuming mythic roles.

  Dragon unBreaks = realises Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia have always been gods since the Dawn Era.  

  Ok. Try: Vivec, Sotha Sil and Alma = mortal; Mess with heart = gods? True, False or Maybe?

  If maybe:

  Vivec, Sotha Sil and Alma = Mortal; Mess with heart = cause Dragon Break. Events of Dragon Break happen in the Dawn Era = period of non-linear time. Events of Battle of Red Mountain = recreation of mythic story with all the players assuming mythic roles.

  Dragon unBreaks = realises Vivec, Sotha Sil and Almalexia have always been gods since the Dawn Era.  

• Karver the Lorc

  

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  January 26, 2016

  Alright, this I understand. But what of the Dumac/Trinimac/Malacath and more importantly Orcs?

  Dwemer completely disappear because the Drangon unBreaked and they were always Orcs?

  Alright, this I understand. But what of the Dumac/Trinimac/Malacath and more importantly Orcs?

  Dwemer completely disappear because the Drangon unBreaked and they were always Orcs?

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  January 26, 2016

  No, I reject that aspect. Dumac and the Orcs are only relevant (imo I hasten to add) in the role they play in the myth and the recreation of that myth.

  In every event involving Trinimac there needs to be a betrayal of epic proportions. We have seen this in the ESO Orsinium main quest. In every apotheosis there needs to be a betrayal: Talos, The Tribunal, Auriel possibly. All featured betrayals. Trinimac's story is like that in a microcosm, the story of Lorkhan and the rest played out in one being. The Battle of Red Mountain needed its Trinimac but not as a creation myth for the Orsimer

  At least I don't think so. Which makes me something of a hypocrite because I advocate the skin colour change to the Chimer happening during the setting of the Changed Ones. If it can be their genesis, why not the Orsimer too?

  The way I see the TES setting is like a musical or a song. Each culture has it's own theme tune but many of the themes can be heard in all cultures. The Trinimac theme is intrinsically tied up with the Dunmeri racial tune and as such can be heard many times throughout their history. It is only fitting that it should be heard in the pivotal Red Moment.

  Obviously the Trinimac theme pops up more often in the Orsimeri racial tune. There are bound to be overlaps between the Dunmer and Orsimer, especially when both races are playing the same tune at the same time.  

  No, I reject that aspect. Dumac and the Orcs are only relevant (imo I hasten to add) in the role they play in the myth and the recreation of that myth.

  In every event involving Trinimac there needs to be a betrayal of epic proportions. We have seen this in the ESO Orsinium main quest. In every apotheosis there needs to be a betrayal: Talos, The Tribunal, Auriel possibly. All featured betrayals. Trinimac's story is like that in a microcosm, the story of Lorkhan and the rest played out in one being. The Battle of Red Mountain needed its Trinimac but not as a creation myth for the Orsimer

  At least I don't think so. Which makes me something of a hypocrite because I advocate the skin colour change to the Chimer happening during the setting of the Changed Ones. If it can be their genesis, why not the Orsimer too?

  The way I see the TES setting is like a musical or a song. Each culture has it's own theme tune but many of the themes can be heard in all cultures. The Trinimac theme is intrinsically tied up with the Dunmeri racial tune and as such can be heard many times throughout their history. It is only fitting that it should be heard in the pivotal Red Moment.

  Obviously the Trinimac theme pops up more often in the Orsimeri racial tune. There are bound to be overlaps between the Dunmer and Orsimer, especially when both races are playing the same tune at the same time.