Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

Lore: Argonians and Grummites

  • June 13, 2016

    As it happens to be, me and Phil were talking about some crazy stuff like Towers and Stones and we got to Hist and then from there to Argonians. And Phil said something like: “Pretty much everyone has a creation myth, so where´s the Argonians´ one?”

    Well, we might have found the answer.

    The Dark Husband is a book that at first seems to be somehow tied to Dark Brotherhood, Shadoscales and Night Mother. But first look deceives. I would like to take a look at these sentences:

    But his Fangs … the Fangs of Sithis still bite. They take particular pleasure in envenoming the weak-minded, the foolish, the greedy, or the headstrong, but the Fangs can destroy the powerful and the wise as well.

    The downfall of our ancestors is tied to the Fangs of Sithis,

    There´s not much to it at first, but maybe if we dig deeper...much deeper. Like 36 Lessons and the story how Sheogorath threw Baar Dau at Vivec City.

    When Sheogorath rebelled against the Tribunal, he tricked the moon Baar Dau into forsaking its appointed path through Oblivion. The Mad Star inspired the moon to hurl itself upon Vivec's new city, which Sheogorath claimed was built in mockery of the heavens. When Vivec learned of Sheogorath's scheme, he froze the rogue moon in the sky with a single gesture and the grace of his countenance. Overwhelmed by the courage and daring of Vivec, the moon Baar Dau swore itself to eternal service of the Tribunal and all its works. Thus the moon now stands guard over the palace, and serves as a citadel for the Temple's Ordinators.

    Compare that to 36 Lessons:

    the Scaled Blanket, made of not-stars, whose number is thirteen. Lie Rock became full of foolishness, haggling with the Void Ghost who hides in the religions of all men. The Void Ghost said:

    'Stay with me a full hundred years and I will give you a power that no divinity will dare disobey.'

    But before the hundred years was up, Vivec was already looking for Lie Rock and found him.

    'Stupid stone,' Vivec said. 'To hide in the Scaled Blanket is to make a mark on nothing. His bargains are only for ruling kings!'

    So Vivec sent the Hortator to the heavens to shave Lie Rock asunder by the named axe. Nerevar made peace with the south-pole-star of thieving and the north-pole-star of warriors and the third-pole-star, which existed only in the ether, which was governed by the apprentice of Magnus the sun. They gave him leave to wander among their charges and gave him red sight by which to find Lie Rock in the Hidden Heaven.

    By chance, Nerevar met the Void Ghost first, who told him that he was in the wrong place to which the Hortator said, 'Me or you?' and the Void Ghost said both. This sermon does not tell what else was said between these masters.

    Lie Rock, however, used the confusion to launch his own attack on the city-god, Vivec.

    Where I´m getting with all this...Well, Sheogorath is called Sithis-Shaped-Hole. So I ask you, can Sithis-Shaped-Hole have Fangs?

    Phil says that if that Hole is the Void Ghost and the Void Ghost is part of Lorkhan and Lorkhan is just subgradient of Sithis, then Sithis-Shaped-Hole can have Fangs, which stand as metaphor for destruction and change. But what if the metaphor isn´t destruction and change? What if it´s madness?

    This one is quote from Infernal City:

    When Glim touches the root he has this vision: “Everything else around him ad become waterish, blurred, but as he laid his webbed hand on the rough surface, the colors sharpened and focused. He stood here, no longer seeing the crumbling, rotted Imperial warehouses, but instead a city of monstrous stone ziggurats and statues pushing up to the sky, a place of glory and madness.

    Now I would like to look at those quotes from Dark Husband and replace “Fangs of Sithis” with “madness”, because what else beside madness can envenom the weak-minded, the foolish, the greedy, or the headstrong and also destroy the powerful and wise as well?

    What I´m trying to say? I think that Grummites from Shivering Isles are somewhat related to Argonians, maybe even being their ancestors. (For those not familiar with Grummites, you can check them on UESP: Grummites and From Frog to Man though that book isn´t exactly reliable with its many assumptions)


    So what beside “madness” of ancestors connects Argonians with these frog-like creatures from Shivering Isles?

    Those familiar with ESO and mainly Shadowfen know that there are pyramid/ziggurat like structures called Xanmeers by Argonians and built by ancestors even more primitive than the Saxhleel

    Now, if you played Shivering Isles...for me, those ruins all over there are somewhat similar in structure and style. For me. But what strikes me odd is names of those ruins.

    Xaselm, Xavara, Xeddefen, Xedilian, Xiditte, Xirethard.

    I don´t know how about you, but doesn´t that sound like something very similar to Jel, Argonians´ language? So why the hell ruins with Jel sounding names dot Shivering Isles landscape? And to be honest, I remember them to look like places of “glory and madness?”

    There´s not much to know about Grummites. We know they lay eggs, from those eggs hatch Baliwogs (or smally pollywogs), then they hibernate in mud and become Grummites. It is also interesting that in Shivering Isles there are beasts called Scalons who are strikingly similar to Grummites, but more...feral.

    But this is all I´ve got. So what do you think? Can Grummites be Argonians´ ancestors? Or just something that evolved from them? Or maybe they are what Argonians would be without Hist Sap?


    Who knows.....

  • Member
    June 14, 2016

    Mind blown! Argonians suddenly got interesting. Nice Karver, very subversive. This is lore!

    Edit: To summarise, it stems from this quote from the book From Frog to Man:

    The life cycle of the Grummite is rather unique. They appear to be a deviant version of frogs and may even be distantly related to Argonians, although I have no direct evidence of that.

    Karver decided he was going to find that evidence and his search led him from the Shivering Isles to The Ministry of Truth. Sheogorath was created, that is to say madness was created, when Lorkhan's divine was removed. As such he is called "the Sithis-shaped hole" of the world.

    As Lorkhan is a sub-gradient of Sithis, the Fangs of Sithis mentioned by Argonians as being tied to their ancestors downfall could well be a metaphor for madness, i.e., Uncle Sheo.

    By looking at the place names of the old ruins of the Shivering Isles and comparing them to place names in Jel, Karver has found eerie similarities in both the sounds and shapes of these structures. On top of that, he has found a passage in Infernal City which, although as circumstantial as the place names, is compelling enough for me to say: Sold!

    Grummites = Argonian ancestors. The question, then, is how did they go mad? Were the Hist the first to go nuts? Is there a connection between the Hist and the Gnarls of the Shivering Isles? They play a huge role in that realm...

  • June 14, 2016
    Thanks, Phil. Yeah, it's interesting, but raising more questions than giving them. If Grummites are tge ancestors, how did they end up in Shivering Isles? With Greymarches and shit how are they still alive?
  • Member
    June 14, 2016

    Holy CHIMachunga! Never have I thought of the Argonians' creation myth like this.

    I thought they were created from the Hist tree. (or something like that based on what I saw from a Storyteller Skyrim video.)

  • June 14, 2016
    You actully are quite right. It's Hist and their Sap that are giving Argonians their form when they hatch. Many forms. So what would happen without the Sap? I heard somewhere that Argonians without it are not sentient, but I might be wrong. So what if Grummites are/were Saxhleel without Hist?
  • Member
    June 14, 2016

    Sleeping Tree Sap came from Umbriel. So maybe in the Shivering Isles, there's a different version of the Hist (or their sap) which caused the creation of the Grummites.

  • Member
    June 14, 2016

    Like Seekers or Lurkers of Apocrypha, are they now part of the realm? Daedra cannot die... They could be vestiges, just like Haskill.

  • June 14, 2016
    There are...weird trees in Shivering Isles, but they are tied to some kind of bark creatures, don't remember their names. Haven't seen anything resembling Hist in SI, but that doesn't mean you're wrong. They can be Argonians without Hist or dosed on different Hist. My knowledge about Hist isn't that good to be honest.
  • June 14, 2016
    Now that's interesting. Daedra Argonians. Maybe something like Umbriel Argonians?
  • June 14, 2016

    Ah, sorry, Phil. I haven´t noticed your edit.

    Hmm, Gnarls. UESP says they are one of Sheogorath´s more unique creations. They are living between roots of Isles´ trees right?