Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 5, 2014 5:24 PM EST

  Wow. You should probably look at it from both sides instead of just one.
• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 5, 2014 5:41 PM EST

  It's...a bit more complex than that, Garthar.

  The Dunmer view themselves as victims of systemic discrimination; that the Nords of Windhelm are prejudiced, and that everything bad that happens to them within the walls is a result of that racist treatment. The Nords, on the other hand, probably view the dark elves as essentially ungrateful jerks, who wandered in after losing their own home and now demand preferential treatment because of their status as refugees. (also remember that, before Morrowind was destroyed, the Dunmer were by-and-large colossal jerks; some of the bad blood could be a holdover from that, i.e. "they're getting what they deserve")

  Who's right? Well, it's probably a mix of both. There absolutely is discrimination going on, with Nords harassing dark elves in the streets...on the other hand, the Dunmer are guests in another culture, one that's not the most open-minded at the best of times, so perhaps expecting to be welcomed in Skyrim with open arms isn't entirely realistic.

  There are several examples that show it's not impossible for non-Nords to thrive in Windhelm; if anyone should have trouble in the Stormcloak capital, it's Altmer, but there are two high elves with shops right in the center of the city. And there's a Dunmer who speculates that his fellow dark elves invite scorn and opposition by challenging and confronting the Nords at every turn, instead of just sucking it up and working hard.

  I'd definitely say that the Nords could be doing more to accomidating, but I also think the Dunmer deserve some blame for (seemingly) refusing to accept that they're in Skyrim now, and that means the rules are a bit different.

• Tolveor

  

  • 55 posts
   

  November 5, 2014 5:43 PM EST

  - People talking about nords in general being racist doesn't exclude other races from also being racist. Dunmer being one of the more xenophobic ones.

  - Thats the best looking slums i've seen ever. 

  - Whats the source of the hating (From Dunmer to Nord inside Windhelm) I would appreciate a reference to a dialogue. The most I've seen is the guy complaining the first time you visit Sadri's used wares. Granted I know I don't know the dialogue in Windhelm as well as alot of you, hence the question.

  - wonder if we can reach 100 pages?

• Chris

  

  • 1441 posts
   

  November 5, 2014 5:55 PM EST

  They're trying to add a bit of their culture into WIndhelm, minus slaves

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:08 PM EST

  Haha that was rather straight-forward no? Eh, it's just that every time I am reading The Dunmer of Skyrim I am getting mad. Well, there is natural hatred between man and mer, after a ridicilous amount of wars and betrayals between them, so yeah, it would be wrong to say that nords are all innocent on that matter. But really, the city of Ysgramor is described with words like "mighty" and "great" in historical books. I don't think this would be the case if half the city was just slums. So, when the dark elves came in, I don't believe the Stone Quarter was already a slum.

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:08 PM EST

  Are you a scientist or something?

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:10 PM EST

  I don't believe we should even use the word "racism" in a fantasy style universe. If that was the case, then Gimli and Legolas would be just two racist assholes.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:13 PM EST

  They are. When the two first meet, they are racist assholes.
• NeroKitty

  

  • 661 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:16 PM EST

  Truly. 

• NeroKitty

  

  • 661 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:21 PM EST

  Give that man a cookie! He deserves as much. 

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:37 PM EST

  Oh, come on. It's just natural hatred after ages of war and bloodshed between the two races. It's still hate that divides them, but not about their biological differences. It's about their past. I mean, they wouldn't hate each other if their ancestors weren't in bad blood between them.

• NeroKitty

  

  • 661 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 3:40 PM EST

  lolwut dude, those are like the very foundations of racism. Don't be coy with yourself here mang. 

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 4:07 PM EST

  No. Racism is literally the hatred towards another group of people because they have different genes or different views/opinions/faith. Tolkien's universe is not the kingdom of racism. There are different laws and views in a medieval fantasy world.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 7, 2014 4:24 PM EST

  I'm pretty sure Racism is restricted to ethnicity...Everything else falls under a larger scale of opposition. Bigotry is all encompassing, where as racism is specific. A sniper bullet to an artillery strike. 

  I would like to know when racism became different from tribalism. "Them" vs "Us." We've been programmed for one, and more recently programmed against another. 

  What am do? 

• SoulLess

  

  • 207 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 5:12 PM EST

  I see that the book says it.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 7, 2014 6:06 PM EST

  Answer me this: Do Gimli/Athal Sarys/Rolff Stone-fist think their races are better than Elves/Nords/Dunmer?

• Tolveor

  

  • 55 posts
   

  November 8, 2014 2:49 AM EST

  By tribalism I guess you mean ethnocentrism.

  Aristoteles wrote that "barbarians" (here meaning non-greek") were more inclined to become slaves than Greeks, because they were more willing to submit to a despotic government. It is unclear wether he meant because of physical attributes, Soul or environment though, but in any case it seems like just ethnocentrism to me.

  To me it seems like the foundation of modern racism comes with the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand the V and Isabella the I(late 1400s to start of 1500s) and the spaniards then formulated the limpieza de sangre, or the cleanliness of blood doctrine, and took eurocentrism to a whole new level. The "scientific" terms didnt come untill later, but was an attempt to explain what then (1800s roughly) had already gone on for centuries.

  As for racism being restricted to ethnicity, thats the "scientific" part yes. Behavior explained through the connection to your racial category, and in consequence attributing it to how this race is, in other words setting a group above the individual.

  As racism is defined so widely though, we also have to include discriminatory behaviors and beliefs based on cultural, national, caste, ethnic and religious stereotypes.

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 9, 2014 5:26 AM EST

  Man, I don't know about Gimli. I hold him too dear in my heart to place such a harsh title above his head. I've read the Lord of the Rings and watched the movie and I've never heard him say "I'm a dwarf, so I am better than you" and stuff like that. He just expresses his hatred towards the elven race NOT because they are different (he would be hating Aragorn and Frodo too if that was the case) but because of the fights and betrayals in the past. 

  However yeah, I am pretty sure Athal and Rolff believe that kind of stuff. They ARE racists. I am just trying to defend a part of the hatred Rolff expresses. That, of course, doesn't mean I think he is not a racist.

• Garthar the Old

  

  • 78 posts
   

  November 9, 2014 8:04 AM EST

  Just a comment about the dunmer of Windhelm I found on facebook by a guy named David Betts III:

  I'd like to mention that the Grey Quarter is not actually part of Skyrim. Politically, it is the property of Morrowind, as the Jarl of Windhelm did hand over that section to the dunmer as they were fleeing Morrowind due to the Red Year and the Saxhleel invasion 200ish years ago. The situation the dunmer are in is entire of their own doing. Windhelm does not need to support them, as they do not collect taxes from them, nor are the dunmer required to swear fealty to the Jarl. Grey Quarter went to hell, it is because the dunmer there allowed it, not due to racism.  And with Ulfric needing to support his army and his rebelling, foreign aid packages are going to be the last thing on his mind, especially towards a population that does not swear fealty to him, nor pay taxes to the Jarl.  Seriously, if the freaking altmer can not only live in Windhelm very comfortably, let alone be considered highly respectable members of the population, the dunmer have NO excuse. Think about it. The altmer, the race who makes up the backbone of the Thalmor and are diametrically opposed to man in thinking and religion, are seen as valuable members of Windhelm and are respected citizens. How did they get to be respected and valued? They worked hard and showed they're not a bunch of whiny freeloaders. The dunmer of the Grey Quarter, on the other hand, whine and moan all the time, but don't seem to actually do anything to prove they are to be respected.

• Chris

  

  • 1441 posts
   

  November 9, 2014 11:47 AM EST

  Basically, don't judge every Nord, or hell, every race for the crimes of some members. Heck, the Dominion actually attacked ALTMER who were FLEEING the Dominion, dissidents or not, at Sentinel. Or, for instance, Rolff is proud of being racist (which probably is why so many of us punch him out in a brawl), but that doesn't mean all Nords are like "Eh, you an elf, DIE!"
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 9, 2014 12:21 PM EST

  Now, unfortunately, we need sources, because people here have argued just the opposite (That Grey Quarter belongs to Windhelm, and the Dunmer pay taxes). He makes a good point about the Altmer, though.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 9, 2014 12:25 PM EST

  Okay. I'd just suggest not trying to defend it at all. The Nords have some things wrong, and by the looks of it, so do the Dunmer.

  The only other thing I would point out is that racism (when present) does not make someone racist against all other races. So in the example above, it's entirely possible for Gimli and Legolas to be racist against each other without being racist against Men or Halflings.

• Asks-Many-Questions

  

  • 278 posts
   

  November 9, 2014 1:18 PM EST

  "Not trying to defend it at all" is probably the best policy here. It's something you just have to deal with, like it or not. There are plenty of other isues in the Empire/Stormcloaks debate that are less likely to get people's dander up.

• Tolveor

  

  • 55 posts
   

  November 10, 2014 4:16 AM EST

  To make it more complicated, assuming nords are racist because they are nord is a racist assumtion.
• Tolveor

  

  • 55 posts
   

  November 10, 2014 4:19 AM EST

  He does make a good point about the altmer. If i remember right there are also dunmer farmers just outside