Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 6:39 PM EST

  I'm saying that you have to accept people for who they are, even if they're racist.
  
  It's the one major thing people have against Ulfric. And I've heard it so much I'm sick of it, so I'm shoving "accepting people for who they are" down their throats.
  
  Ulfric killed a symbol, a puppet king who might have well been no king at all. He wasn't the one making decisions. The Empire was. Ulfric didn't kill a king. He killed a yes man.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 6:45 PM EST

  Who are you talking about? I haven't seen this character in lore.
• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 6:50 PM EST

  Thank God there isn't one.
  
  But Elisif.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 6:52 PM EST

  Almost everything you're saying is contradictory, like I said. No one in this recent discussion has even claimed Ulfric was racist. Garthur just said "prove Ulfric is racist" out of the blue. Assuming he were, the "accept people" line carries no weight at all. It's not informative, it's not going to change anyone's mind, and it's nonsense. We can accept that someone is fundamentally racist, but that doesn't mean it's an acceptable belief and that person should be leading. Just like we can accept that someone is a homicidal maniac without letting them run amok. It gets the conversation nowhere.
  
  Oh and "accept people for who they are, unless they don't rule they way you want them to, then kill them," might be more accurate for what you're trying to convey.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 6:54 PM EST

  Eh, I haven't had much interaction with Elisef, but from what I've seen, I'll give you that one.
• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 6:58 PM EST

  Exactly. Its contradictory, and hypocritical.
  As for Torrygg, the high king has been chosen by the Emperors for generation, and the Jarls always endorsed his choice because their job was on the line. It's time for a restart, and Ulfric clicked the button when Torygg hit the floor.
• HumanOfPrey

  

  • 168 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 7:21 PM EST

  Here are my two cents:

  Racist: Ulfric doesn't say that to the player but his supporters display that clearly. Adranne Avenicci is one of their victims. When Whiterun becomes a Stormcloak territory she said that she is doing less business than usual because the Stormcloaks don't like buying from anyone that isn't a Nord. And I don't care who and what a person is. If he/she is a racist then this person is not a hero in my book because I was not raised to hate those who are different.

  Power Hungry: Ok, let's suppose Ulfric killed the king for another reason. Then the moot is summoned and the jarls choose another one who is not Ulfric. What would Ulfric do? Kill the next king or accept the decision? Hard to say.

  Egomaniac: Hard to say too.

• Vaaljørn

  

  • 92 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 7:24 PM EST

  The game doesn't ask you to determine if Ulfric is a racist. The game simply asks if the player-character believes that Skyrim should be free. Period. Nothing more, nothing less.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 7:36 PM EST

  Exactly. Its contradictory, and hypocritical.

  All this tells me is not to take anything you say seriously.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 7:40 PM EST

  ...you ain't picking up what I'm putting down.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 7:45 PM EST

  TES is not a culture, Ben. It's a world, a setting that contains cultures. So who's culture should I judge by? The Nords, who are of a completely divided mind during the game, anyway? The Dunmer? They have citizens in Skyrimm too. I should hand-wave and go along with cultures that espouse slavery or oppression? This is faulty logic, because it's a double edged sword. If we should be accepting every Nord custom at face value, than why shouldn't we accept the Imperial custom? Skyrim is a province of the Empire, subject to imperial law, so culturally, a good citizen would expect them to fall in line.

  This "don't judge" argument holds as little water as the "Ulfric is a racist" argument. Plenty of Nords, fully immersed in Nordic culture, think Ulfric is a bad guy. So I guess he is because culture? See how that doesn't work?

  I'm not so much surprised that people are saying that racism is okay in this game as I am with who is saying it.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 7:46 PM EST

  If you don't try to make sense, then I won't try to understand you, man. Sorry.

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 7:49 PM EST

  "Why would it be "racist" to have prejudices against an entire "race" in Skyrim when each race is so different."

  

• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 7:54 PM EST

  Never mind.
  It's just satirical.
• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:10 PM EST

  Sorry, no. That's not how things work.

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:13 PM EST

  Your words speak for themselves.

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:18 PM EST

  Here you go.

• Borommakot

  

  • 1217 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:22 PM EST

  You don't seem to understand what a race is. A dark skinned and light skinned Nord are not different races.

  You also don't seem to understand what prejudice is. Treating someone as inferior because of how they are different, and excluding or oppressing them is prejudiced, not being able to tell the difference between race or species.

• HumanOfPrey

  

  • 168 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:25 PM EST

  You have a good point when you said that real life racism would be a light skinned Nord that is prejudiced against a dark skinned Nord when they are both Nords and can do the same things. But what I don't understand is the problem the Nords of Skyrim have with other races. A Nord cannot breathe underwater and Argonian cannot withstand the cold, of course, but both can carry crates, however the Argonians working on Windhelm docks earn less pay than the Nords and the excuse Torbjorn Shatter-Shield is "Argonian's labor is only worth a tenth of a 'proper Nord worker'". Why? Just because the guy is an Argonian? As for Adranne Avenicci, why the Stormcloaks wouldn't buy her stuff? Because she is an Imperial? The Nords of Skyrim must learn that we can't judge a book by its cover. Khajiits may be criminals and drug dealers but that doesn't mean 100% of Khajiits are criminal scums. Ysolda knows this (she is a Nord, by the way) and she is learning caravan trade with a Khajiit to become one herself. Why those Nords can't treat all people, regardless of the race, skills and abilities, as equals? Those attitudes are unforgivable for me.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 8:29 PM EST

  ...A dark skinned Nord and a light skinned Nord are different races.

  No. One gets tan and the other gets sunburned. 

  Only in recent years has it been "declared" that race/ethnicity is only skin deep...Probably gonna get banned if I go further...

• Tolveor

  

  • 55 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:31 PM EST

  Both the original poster and Garthar asked, hence this discussion

• Tolveor

  

  • 55 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:34 PM EST

  Good points Ben. Although we might end up redifining the species to to a walking talking thinking humanoid. Then it would be racism

• Deleted Member

  
   

  November 4, 2014 8:37 PM EST

  That's just one thing...There's Genome differences, predispositions to certain things, (Caucasian males are more prone to color blindness), and just how our bodies do stuff sometimes. Medicine is increasingly being specified to ethnicity. 

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:38 PM EST

  Because race in humans is a social concept...

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  November 4, 2014 8:39 PM EST

  We humans are all the same species. Race has no bearing on taxonomy in terms of specific biological differences. It is a naive term that is used to lazily identify different ethnic backgrounds.