[blockquote]

It is most definitely a more difficult playthrough as a good character.  From a game standpoint, this eliminates all the daedra quests, the Dark Brotherhood and the Theives Guild is out as well, particularly for a devoutely religious character.  Religion plays a large part in psychology of both good and evil characters. In the case of good characters trying to emulate the vitures each of the Nine (or Eight) Divines upholds can have an influence on psychology.  I have found being devoted to a single Divine to be even more interesting because you can even have rival issues and ethics with the other divines and their followers.  Being devoted to Dibella is far different than being devoted to Arkay.

Interesting discussion,

Rabyd One 

[/blockquote]

But does it really eliminate quests that we in this world would consider "evil"? I'm not so sure. Some things to think about: Is a predator evil when it kills? I would say no, it does it by instinct and the need to survive. By extension, would a feral vampire who feeds by instinct be evil?

The woodelves consider stealing sport as i understand it, and it is accepted by their culture(to a certain degree probably). I don't think a wood-elf brought up in a wood elf village would consider it bad to steal. They would consider it worthy of a good story perhaps.

I guess what I am getting at is that what matters is what your character think is good is good, and what your character think is evil is evil. So strictly speaking you can have a character motivated by good intentions that is considered by the rest of society to be bad. I'm not sure if i make sense or get my point across. Just remember that when you play, you play as an individual, not a society.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

Shitty northern broadband, right? The servers are run on coal up there :P I use humour to cover the fact I have nothing else to respond to seeing as your points were so concise that all I can do is agree with them. I like your priorities too, Saadia is a no-brainer :D

[blockquote]

To be fair you're not wrong :P I only wish we could marry the mysterious barmaid... Free drinks for life!

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/RogueSilver]RogueSilver[/url] said:[/b]

Not much for me to add as far as the extent of what creates such a psychological state of characters. All were very good points that I wholeheartedly agree with.

For my character, James, a former knight in Daggerfall, a few events happened that led to the demise of people he was close to (so specific, I know :p). He had always been driven to honor his family. However, his codes, morals, and creed made him feel held back on both the social realm as well as the combat side of things. "Honor", the virtue that his fellow Breton family had practically raised him on, wasn't meant for the good of the people. It was to raise their social status and make them appear charitable and noble. So with this difference of thinking growing in James, he naturally had a conflict with the patriarch of the Sterling family; his father. This combined with his preference for fighting dirty just didn't do well as far as keeping his virtues aligned with his family's. 

And when he does get stripped of his titles and exiled, James embraces this person that he had been concealing for as long as he could remember. He crafted own "creed", which is to do what must be done in order to restore his family wealth and presence. This time, in a foreign land, filled with plenty of opportunities to fill his pocket and redeem himself for the terrible mistake he made back home. 

I enjoy chaotic-neutral characters way too much :p

[/blockquote]

Sounds awesome to me! I'd imagine that after been couped up for so long the 'new him' would go a little crazy, which would be really fun to play. It's interesting how James seems to have never let his family define him, but now he's free he's defined by nothing but his family - as now he's free of them.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/RogueSilver]RogueSilver[/url] said:[/b]

Not much for me to add as far as the extent of what creates such a psychological state of characters. All were very good points that I wholeheartedly agree with.

For my character, James, a former knight in Daggerfall, a few events happened that led to the demise of people he was close to (so specific, I know :p). He had always been driven to honor his family. However, his codes, morals, and creed made him feel held back on both the social realm as well as the combat side of things. "Honor", the virtue that his fellow Breton family had practically raised him on, wasn't meant for the good of the people. It was to raise their social status and make them appear charitable and noble. So with this difference of thinking growing in James, he naturally had a conflict with the patriarch of the Sterling family; his father. This combined with his preference for fighting dirty just didn't do well as far as keeping his virtues aligned with his family's. 

And when he does get stripped of his titles and exiled, James embraces this person that he had been concealing for as long as he could remember. He crafted own "creed", which is to do what must be done in order to restore his family wealth and presence. This time, in a foreign land, filled with plenty of opportunities to fill his pocket and redeem himself for the terrible mistake he made back home. 

I enjoy chaotic-neutral characters way too much :p

[/blockquote]

The redemption story and a personal bond to a creed once again, a true classic and stable everything. Not that there is anything wrong with it, and I would say I like what you did, he pretty much embraced the idea of his "evil ways" and does whatever to further his goal or what he thinks is right.

Also, anything Chaotic or Neutral is always the best way to play. :)

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Ebonslayer]Ebonslayer[/url] said:[/b]

I think a good one to do a discussion for is character progression. A character doesn't realistically stay the same after a journey, especially one like in Skyrim. You will eventually change your ideas, morality, beliefs, and even your relationships over time.

[/blockquote]

If you want you can go ahead and create that discussion if you would, I have no objections to it.

Also, this is my 100th post *parties*

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/TolveorDeschain]Tolveor Deschain[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote]

It is most definitely a more difficult playthrough as a good character.  From a game standpoint, this eliminates all the daedra quests, the Dark Brotherhood and the Theives Guild is out as well, particularly for a devoutely religious character.  Religion plays a large part in psychology of both good and evil characters. In the case of good characters trying to emulate the vitures each of the Nine (or Eight) Divines upholds can have an influence on psychology.  I have found being devoted to a single Divine to be even more interesting because you can even have rival issues and ethics with the other divines and their followers.  Being devoted to Dibella is far different than being devoted to Arkay.

Interesting discussion,

Rabyd One 

[/blockquote]

But does it really eliminate quests that we in this world would consider "evil"? I'm not so sure. Some things to think about: Is a predator evil when it kills? I would say no, it does it by instinct and the need to survive. By extension, would a feral vampire who feeds by instinct be evil?

The woodelves consider stealing sport as i understand it, and it is accepted by their culture(to a certain degree probably). I don't think a wood-elf brought up in a wood elf village would consider it bad to steal. They would consider it worthy of a good story perhaps.

I guess what I am getting at is that what matters is what your character think is good is good, and what your character think is evil is evil. So strictly speaking you can have a character motivated by good intentions that is considered by the rest of society to be bad. I'm not sure if i make sense or get my point across. Just remember that when you play, you play as an individual, not a society.

[/blockquote]

Religious Characters would consider what society considers good and evil based on whatever religious society they belong to; it would be important to them.  Most people live in two ethical realms - what helps them advance themselves (self-centered) or going along with the crowd (society centered). Many people jump back and forth between these two. The third form of ethics is making decisions on defined principles which is actually quite rare.  

Socieities definitions of what is good and evil mean something to those who value their society.  It would have an effect on their mindset and psychology.  That could be as simple as not wanting to disappoint one's family motto to a philosophical system based on the Divines that the city follows closely to be accepted.

That said, why we could debate whether all killing is murder or all stealing theft. Murder, rape and other such crimes do find their way as evil by most societies. Good is actually more debateable as good intentions can cause a great deal of harm.  The road to hell is paved with them. :)  

I agree it is complcated.  But societies do indeed have definitions of good and evil that people follow and a character would consider their society either important or not but regardless it would have an effect on their psychology..A Dunmer devoted to the Reclaimations of dark elf society is going to have a different idea of good and evil to be sure, but the dark elf society that promotes the Reclaimaitons would have an effect on that Dunmer's viewpoint. 

In Tamriel, The socieity at large considers the deadra evil and the aedra good.  This simple dichotomy would have some effect on the psychology of the character in that the character can either accept it or reject it.  In rejecting it there are a lot of options to be sure but this basic quesiton would be the first true psychological issue in most peoples' life in Tamriel. This could be tilted one way or the other by the socieity a character grows up in. 

In short, yes, you play as an individual but society has a great effect on the lens you look at the world ethically and how your repond to it psychologically.

I really don't have much to see, because pretty much everything has been said, but I will do this for my character.

The Bard, a Dunmer thief, does what she does because that is all she knows. All she knows is how to steal, walk in the shadows, pickpockets without the victim noticing, and more because she was born into the Thieves Guild of Cyrodiil. She doesn't kill because there is no need for it, and even if she is attacked first she tries to wound them so she can escape. She picked up the disguised as a bard for two reasons, she heard tales of a great thief who went by the same name and did the something she is doing, he also became a Nightingale, and two she can easily sneak into people's houses and rob them if they would like some...private sessions with her.

Probably a follow up quesiton might be what specifically would be a part of personality in being the Dragonborn? Or what affects would there be on the Dragonborn upon discovery that they are Dragonborn and what would the long term affects be?  I understand this would be varied but there area fewthings that migt be standard.  I think the prophecy of the Last Dragonborn, Miraak and other factors could change psychology.  Thoughts?

Rabyd One

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Rabyd1]Rabyd One[/url] said:[/b]

Probably a follow up quesiton might be what specifically would be a part of personality in being the Dragonborn? Or what affects would there be on the Dragonborn upon discovery that they are Dragonborn and what would the long term affects be?  I understand this would be varied but there area fewthings that migt be standard.  I think the prophecy of the Last Dragonborn, Miraak and other factors could change psychology.  Thoughts?

Rabyd One

[/blockquote]

I think it depends on your character and whether or not you have them be the Dragonborn or not. For my character, Elsa the Wind-Talker, she begins as a young and carefree girl, but once it is discovered that she is Dragonborn, then she becomes a mature woman that cares for Skyrim as a mother would a child over time. Though my version of Skyrim I have written about is altered, she sides with the Stormcloaks for she sees Ulfric as Shor and herself as Kyne. She believes it is her motherly and divine duty to defeat Alduin, defeat Miraak, and as doing so she becomes more a Matriarch figure in sense. I hope this what you were asking or close to it.

[blockquote]

Religious Characters would consider what society considers good and evil based on whatever religious society they belong to; it would be important to them.  Most people live in two ethical realms - what helps them advance themselves (self-centered) or going along with the crowd (society centered). Many people jump back and forth between these two. The third form of ethics is making decisions on defined principles which is actually quite rare.  

Socieities definitions of what is good and evil mean something to those who value their society.  It would have an effect on their mindset and psychology.  That could be as simple as not wanting to disappoint one's family motto to a philosophical system based on the Divines that the city follows closely to be accepted.

That said, why we could debate whether all killing is murder or all stealing theft. Murder, rape and other such crimes do find their way as evil by most societies. Good is actually more debateable as good intentions can cause a great deal of harm.  The road to hell is paved with them. :)  

I agree it is complcated.  But societies do indeed have definitions of good and evil that people follow and a character would consider their society either important or not but regardless it would have an effect on their psychology..A Dunmer devoted to the Reclaimations of dark elf society is going to have a different idea of good and evil to be sure, but the dark elf society that promotes the Reclaimaitons would have an effect on that Dunmer's viewpoint. 

In Tamriel, The socieity at large considers the deadra evil and the aedra good.  This simple dichotomy would have some effect on the psychology of the character in that the character can either accept it or reject it.  In rejecting it there are a lot of options to be sure but this basic quesiton would be the first true psychological issue in most peoples' life in Tamriel. This could be tilted one way or the other by the socieity a character grows up in. 

In short, yes, you play as an individual but society has a great effect on the lens you look at the world ethically and how your repond to it psychologically.

[/blockquote]

Maybe, but what would "society" be in this context. A society of vampires like castle volkihar? A society of orcs like the strongholds?

"A Dunmer devoted to the Reclaimations of dark elf society is going to have a different idea of good and evil to be sure, but the dark elf society that promotes the Reclaimaitons would have an effect on that Dunmer's viewpoint. "

You are basically making the point I was trying to get across. It isnt as black and white as good and evil. It's more like gray and murky. And I don't think the "imperial cult" is the main society anyway. Not in the sense that we have western values in the real world. So I basically disagree with you that society at large consider aedra good and daedra evil. Alot consider some of the daedra evil yes, but daedra like Azura is worshipped by at least dark elves and kajiit, and would not be considered evil. That Aedra is good and Daedra is evil is mostly a high elf view.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/GwenUlfblod]The Last Blade[/url] said:[/b]

I think it depends on your character and whether or not you have them be the Dragonborn or not. For my character, Elsa the Wind-Talker, she begins as a young and carefree girl, but once it is discovered that she is Dragonborn, then she becomes a mature woman that cares for Skyrim as a mother would a child over time. Though my version of Skyrim I have written about is altered, she sides with the Stormcloaks for she sees Ulfric as Shor and herself as Kyne. She believes it is her motherly and divine duty to defeat Alduin, defeat Miraak, and as doing so she becomes more a Matriarch figure in sense. I hope this what you were asking or close to it.

[/blockquote]

Yeah kind of like that.  The interest for me is that discovering your a being with power is kind of like Peter Parker discovering he has spider powers.  He had been a soft spoken nerd but after that he becomes even more social.  Discovering you are Dragonborn could have the effects of denial to meglomania.  It becomes an interesting quesiton because I think the backstory of a character might have a significant connection to what they become once this discovery is made

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/TolveorDeschain]Tolveor Deschain[/url] said:[/b]

Maybe, but what would "society" be in this context. A society of vampires like castle volkihar? A society of orcs like the strongholds?

"A Dunmer devoted to the Reclaimations of dark elf society is going to have a different idea of good and evil to be sure, but the dark elf society that promotes the Reclaimaitons would have an effect on that Dunmer's viewpoint. "

You are basically making the point I was trying to get across. It isnt as black and white as good and evil. It's more like gray and murky. And I don't think the "imperial cult" is the main society anyway. Not in the sense that we have western values in the real world. So I basically disagree with you that society at large consider aedra good and daedra evil. Alot consider some of the daedra evil yes, but daedra like Azura is worshipped by at least dark elves and kajiit, and would not be considered evil. That Aedra is good and Daedra is evil is mostly a high elf view.

[/blockquote]   

I don't think we are in disagreement just trying to clarify our point.  If there is anything close to a universal ethic with societies it is probably murder but even then there are things called justified homicide in almost every culture. Ethics of religion are,  as a rule, far more complicated than general ethics in secular society.  It sure does make for an interesting character though if you have them be priest of the divines who does hold the daedra are evil - How many quests does that eliminate?