[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Solyeuse]soly[/url] said:[/b]

With the Mage Knight I stuck to a very simple, functional order of content (Overview/Skills, Perks/(Spell Selection and Usage)/Equipment/Gameplay and Combat/Roleplay) and I think (hope?) it worked exceptionally, but the Mage Knight, in the end, was actually a very simplistic build that focused 100% on playstyle and combat - I wasn't looking to tell any interesting stories.

That said, while there's always room for tinkering and I'm not gonna say that the layout order is set in stone, there are spillover effects. Notably, I feel like nearly every build now opens with Race, Stat Distribution, Standing Stone. This, despite the fact that one of the build templates puts Race/Stats/Stone below Skills and Perks. Partially, it just makes sense to do it that way - if it matters a lot you have the opportunity to explain why it's so crucial to the build right off the bat, and if it only matters a bit you just get them out of the way first. In either case it's an exceptional way to kick off the build - Character Creation. Very poetic, fitting. Stuff.

I'll suggest that depending on the build, different ordering of individual sections will be different. And depending on both the build and the builder, there are going to be more, or less tidbits here and there. I personally always skip the backstory section in a build. If a build doesn't work at all without a backstory section, then I don't think it's very good - some things can be "explained" in a backstory, but the build should be cohesive without it. Ideally (to me) a backstory can be explained within the build itself. Something like the Prodigy (I keep talking about this build, for some reason) has a backstory that's pretty integral to the functioning of the build. And it has a backstory that fits in one sentence. Or, y'know, let's talk about the Outsider. It's got a massive backstory steeped in Lore; a ton of it is sprinkled throughout the build, enriching the reading experience. But everything you really need to know about it is summarised by Liss in one sentence that's even shorter than the Prodigy's one sentence (though to be fair, Henantier has only about three paragraphs of one book in Skyrim about him, so perhaps saying "massive backstory steeped in Lore" is inaccurate).

Ready to hear it? "This build is based on Henantier the Outsider, the first Elven Harbinger." One sentence summarises everything you really need to know about the build backstory.

Obviously, the backstory shines in other ways. Liss is a talent at capturing Henantier's voice, both in writing and in image presentation, and by scattering it throughout the build instead of clumping it into one section at the start, she can hit the highlights as well as talk about what Henantier does within Skyrim as well as before Skyrim. It really works exceptionally, but that's not the point I'm making here. To me (and I want to emphasise again that I do not speak for anyone else) that is the ideal. To me, big backstories (and even shortish ones) are clunky. I don't care for them when I look at a build.

It's why one question I commonly ask is, "What is the goal of the build - are we to play your character, or just our character with your build?" It's not always an easy question to answer, and while I tend to think the latter is the correct answer, I can't condemn the former outright.

Ugh, I've been ranting about backstories, haven't I? I'm about done, anyway, so I'll stop here.

[/blockquote]

Haha, you have, but I understand you, Soly. The "Thalmor killed my parents" is a personal favorite *wink, wink*. For me, it is more about using it to capture the "flavor" of a build. Henantier's was definitely my longest one and I thank readers and supporters of the build for indulging me on that, but even I knew to spread it out and to use it to capture the mood of the piece. Mine are typically much shorter than that, or presented in different ways; Letters between characters, poems, brief encounters that don't explain much about the actual character's history, but delve into the motivations of the build, which only, IMO, enhance the gameplay, gives it purpose.

All this stems from my only personal need for motivation to play something. I can't just play for gameplay purposes anymore, especially after, damn, about 5000 hours of gameplay (both Oldrim and SSE). Yet, however, if a motivation moves me, the suppliment for good, solid mechanics, I'll play for hours more and finish builds. But what does this ultimately say? Lol, that I build for myself, sometimes inspired by events, sometimes inspired by sheer craziness. You all are just along for the ride. :D

Heh.

Going back to the original topic on Build Layout (which I never should have left), I'm going to go with the cop-out answer of "it depends". Because it really does, and there isn't one always-right answer. There are structures that will generally work more often than not (Overview/Skills and Perks/Equipment/Combat/Roleplay is a solid structure that progresses smoothly and hits all the important notes). But depending on the build and its flow, swapping the order of items may be applicable, or inserting an extra section to expound on something important in the build.

And of course, there are myriad other little details. Where do you put your images? What kind of images, headers etc suit the build? Character quotes?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

I think too much stock is put into presentation and layout. I find joy in both the extremely artistic and those builds which expressed nearly all the information required using words alone. I think that's because I accept something on its own merit rather than compare it to something else, you know? Individual creativity is what is important, and the passion and enthusiasm is evident in a build regardless of how it's done.

Like, The Demon Hunter remains one of my favourite builds on the site. It was one of two builds, along with the Swordthane, that drew me in. They are as inspirational now as they were in 2012. That was the sort of thing I "grew up" with and inspired me to try my hand. Over the years trends have come and gone, perkspreads were added and equipment spreads took off, but for me, I can't help but still admire that original spark that we all feel when we first start typing. 

How that spark is portrayed is part of the fun, and ultimately the only thing that matters. 

So all of my stuff is indicitive of those early inspirations. It's probably really old fashioned to think like that now, but it's just what I like. I tried to do perkspreads and stuff, and now I know how yet decided I don't enjoy the process so I don't do it. So yeah, old school is what I find enjoyable to do. I enjoy any build others do that clearly shows how much fun they had. 

[/blockquote]

Paws argues here that we put too much stock into presentation and layout, and like I said, I do somewhat agree with this notion. But I'm going to suggest that someone who's really passionate will want their build to look the best it can be. I'll look at my own build critically and scowl when I see dead white space, for example. It sort of breaks the flow of the text. It's why I spent the better part of two hours formatting it when I posted it. I'll generally have the wording word-perfect before I post, and when the post goes up, I'll push pictures around until everything lines up neatly.

It's an unfortunate truth, but no matter how you slice it, not only substance but appearances matter. If you just throw your build together in a slapdash fashion, with a slapdash appearance, the takeaway for me is that you don't care how it looks. If it looks unpleasant, it's harder to read and keep the readers' attention.

The question is, why do you build? And I feel like no matter the answer, the reader is going to matter. Do you want to share your game with us? It is then your prerogative to make it accessible to us. Are you building to showcase a sexy new build? Again, it's your prerogative to make it accessible to the reader and inspiring.

In fact, I'd like to pose a couple of questions - not derogatorily or rhetorically or anything, I'm genuinely curious. Firstly, can anyone think of a reason to build, in which the audience (us) does not matter? Now I really want to know. Secondly, why do y'all think the appearance of builds has gained so much importance?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Solyeuse]soly[/url] said:[/b]

Paws argues here that we put too much stock into presentation and layout, and like I said, I do somewhat agree with this notion. But I'm going to suggest that someone who's really passionate will want their build to look the best it can be. I'll look at my own build critically and scowl when I see dead white space, for example. It sort of breaks the flow of the text. It's why I spent the better part of two hours formatting it when I posted it. I'll generally have the wording word-perfect before I post, and when the post goes up, I'll push pictures around until everything lines up neatly.

It's an unfortunate truth, but no matter how you slice it, not only substance but appearances matter. If you just throw your build together in a slapdash fashion, with a slapdash appearance, the takeaway for me is that you don't care how it looks. If it looks unpleasant, it's harder to read and keep the readers' attention.

The question is, why do you build? And I feel like no matter the answer, the reader is going to matter. Do you want to share your game with us? It is then your prerogative to make it accessible to us. Are you building to showcase a sexy new build? Again, it's your prerogative to make it accessible to the reader and inspiring.

In fact, I'd like to pose a couple of questions - not derogatorily or rhetorically or anything, I'm genuinely curious. Firstly, can anyone think of a reason to build, in which the audience (us) does not matter? Now I really want to know. Secondly, why do y'all think the appearance of builds has gained so much importance?

[/blockquote]

I always enjoy reading your posts, Soly, they're ever of the highest quality :) I think I aught to clarify about layout and presentation - I don't think for any of us that presentation should be disregarded, and indeed would say that the examples I linked to of my inspirations demonstrate that even back then it was important not to have walls of text, and to break things up in a user-friendly way. That's just good interneting.

It could just be me, I may well be a mutant or aberration in that I come from the lore background, but reading words is not a chore for me, and I will quickly identify something in a text that I like. I remember clearly that there was one sentence in Paul England's The Clever Man that made me want to play it: "A Stalhrim greatsword is one of the finest-looking weapons in the game, and the cold will cling to it like mist above a frozen lake." One sentence. Sold!

No amount of pictures or art could do for me what that one sentence did, but what he did include visualy only enhanced and complimented the words already there. That was a build that doesn't need any pictures to be superb. 

In fact, I'd like to pose a couple of questions - not derogatorily or rhetorically or anything, I'm genuinely curious. Firstly, can anyone think of a reason to build, in which the audience (us) does not matter? Now I really want to know. Secondly, why do y'all think the appearance of builds has gained so much importance?

I can, and it's not something that I can easily explain without waffling. As I mentioned above, I come from the Lore Group. That was my stomping ground, and in that place I soon learned that very few would ever give a tusk about anything I did or said. Or at least they wouldn't ever tell me if they did but I might see words I'd written get repeated back a week or so later by people who'd neither commented nor liked the post in which those words were spoken. So for my own sanity I started to adopt a Vancian system of posting - cast and forget. If someone did take note then it was a genuine thrill and surprise that would often make my day. And then I'd get exhausted and tired of debating it and withdraw, so go figure :D

So I'm the same now for building. I have no desire for anything. None of my builds can be found on my profile page, and I even forget how many I have and have just had to do a recce: After five years and ten builds, I doubt anyone here can tell me what they are and what rank they attained. This is the internet and I could delete my account tomorrow and be forgotten about within a day. That the audience might like someting I do iss the primary reason why I try and make something look nice, just out of good manners, but beyond that I try and do only that which makes me happy. 

As for the second question, I guess I think it's because we are a community of artists. I think it's funny. Imagine a room full of artists, each with various levels of talent, and ask them not to feel pride or the desire to improve themselves. In most cases it is the visual elements of a build that is easist or more likely to get reinterpreted. And long may that continue.

It's weird, though. If I was to say now that my next build will be entirely words, no pictures, or be done in poem form, I'd get laughed out the room.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

It's weird, though. If I was to say now that my next build will be entirely words, no pictures, or be done in poem form, I'd get laughed out the room.

[/blockquote]

Haha, no, I wouldn't laugh.  I'd just ask what's my PawPaw up to? But I'm used to you. :D It would be the same thing if I made a build that used language ala James Joyce or start spouting Kirkbride from my mouth. 

And I'll take a stab at question 1. 

Events. Events I'd say most of my builds stemmed from event or contest inspiration. It's the "Can I do this" factor, which really has nothing to do with the audience. Like for example, the Two in Two or the Against Type event, but especially Two in Two, but I personally really like challenges like that. How they make you think creatively about how the game is played and sometimes making you step out of your comfort zone to find new appreciation for a playstyle. 

Second question.

I make something look nice, because, as Phil says, I make it look nice because that's just how I operate. I don't care what it is, whether it's work or play, I just like sitting on my butt and doing that shit, because it's pretty and I, being a performing artist and formally a person who used to draw a lot, just generally like art. I don't know another way and that gets me into trouble for finishing projects *cough* lore article for Teineeva *cough* because I think about how I want arts to look and things.  As to why it seems to be important now? Hmm, generational perhaps? The old fart that is me has seen the gradual decline of dry text in favor of image enhanced text for some time now. Even textbooks reflect this change, so I don't think it's exclusive to builds perse, but a general shift for all presentation types in that direction. We simply are more visual now. Or just what people seem to prefer? I dunno, I personally can read tons of text because reading is an intergral part of both my work and my joy. They don't call me Long-Chapper for nothing. I excel at ginormous walls of text. 

Now I put my builds on my profile page, but I like just seeing the images on my profile page. They purty. :D

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Solyeuse]soly[/url] said:[/b]

In fact, I'd like to pose a couple of questions - not derogatorily or rhetorically or anything, I'm genuinely curious. Firstly, can anyone think of a reason to build, in which the audience (us) does not matter? Now I really want to know. Secondly, why do y'all think the appearance of builds has gained so much importance?

[/blockquote]As to the first: at the risk of sounding like Mary, Mary Quite Contrary; I'm going to say that audience has to matter at least a little. For building in and of itself... no. But if I'm being completely truthful, posting, even if it's only on a subconscious level... yes, audience matters. I took a beginning guitar class in college half a million years ago, and my instructor swore that the only reason anybody plays guitar is to entertain others. I disagreed with that and still do. I always locked myself away when I played, and if anyone came into a room when I was playing, I'd stop--it became less fun for me. So I get that it is possible to do something purely for the satisfaction and joy of just playing or building; if having an audience was important, I'd have produced the music or played live.

I can see a person writing a build simply for the joy of getting it all down, but the second you post it online you've (to some extent) said "I want people to see it." Otherwise why post it? Surely there are other platforms for writing a build that are a lot more friendly to artistic expression than SE or (heaven help us) Ning. Why wrestle with the formatting on a frequently frustrating platform when I could use something else designed just for it, make it perfect, make it more quickly, and then keep it on my computer and look at it whenever I desired? Because I want to share something I really enjoyed. And that means somewhere deep, deep down, there is an audience involved... whether you acknowledge them or not.

My first build I agonized over hitting the 'Post' button. I loved the build. I enjoyed the experience writing it. I wanted to share the experience with others. Ultimately, I wanted them to enjoy it as well. If anyone would have asked, I would have told them that I build for me--first and foremost. And, largely, I suppose that's true, but there is a kernel of audience rattling around my skull when I build because I want them to see what I see when I write that build. Heck, I've missed event deadlines because I felt that I had not properly conveyed the experience, and if I wasn't satisfied with it, there was no way I'd put it out for an audience comprised of a community I respect (regardless of how friendly or accepting they would probably have been ;D). Rant/Rambling over.

And for the second: I think part of the heavy focus on appearance is nothing more than an opportunity to dabble in visual artistic expression. Very much like music, I have a great appreciation for artistic expression, but was blessed with only a modicum of actual artistic ability. I'll never be a great artist or Illustrator (or even good one)--I just don't have the time it would take for me to develop those skills. But I can (usually) manipulate and arrange images in a way that is aesthetically pleasing. That very well may be the closest I'll ever get to being able to call myself an artist. If so, I'll take it ;D

Appearance also adds a level of functionality and aesthetics into a build. Used correctly, images are great for breaking up text, and when you finally stumble across a perfect image that really conveys the vibe you are shooting for in your writing, it seems like it would be somewhat neglegent not to include it.

I understand what you are saying, Shin and I agree. I hope I'm not misunderstood. What I mean is that I don't let the idea of an "audience" overwhelm me in the building process. That is probably a better statement of what I mean. 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/ShinJin]ShinJin[/url] said:[/b]

As to the first: at the risk of sounding like Mary, Mary Quite Contrary; I'm going to say that audience has to matter at least a little. For building in and of itself... no. But if I'm being completely truthful, posting, even if it's only on a subconscious level... yes, audience matters. I took a beginning guitar class in college half a million years ago, and my instructor swore that the only reason anybody plays guitar is to entertain others. I disagreed with that and still do. I always locked myself away when I played, and if anyone came into a room when I was playing, I'd stop--it became less fun for me. So I get that it is possible to do something purely for the satisfaction and joy of just playing or building; if having an audience was important, I'd have produced the music or played live.

I can see a person writing a build simply for the joy of getting it all down, but the second you post it online you've (to some extent) said "I want people to see it." Otherwise why post it? Surely there are other platforms for writing a build that are a lot more friendly to artistic expression than SE or (heaven help us) Ning. Why wrestle with the formatting on a frequently frustrating platform when I could use something else designed just for it, make it perfect, make it more quickly, and then keep it on my computer and look at it whenever I desired? Because I want to share something I really enjoyed. And that means somewhere deep, deep down, there is an audience involved... whether you acknowledge them or not.

My first build I agonized over hitting the 'Post' button. I loved the build. I enjoyed the experience writing it. I wanted to share the experience with others. Ultimately, I wanted them to enjoy it as well. If anyone would have asked, I would have told them that I build for me--first and foremost. And, largely, I suppose that's true, but there is a kernel of audience rattling around my skull when I build because I want them to see what I see when I write that build. Heck, I've missed event deadlines because I felt that I had not properly conveyed the experience, and if I wasn't satisfied with it, there was no way I'd put it out for an audience comprised of a community I respect (regardless of how friendly or accepting they would probably have been ;D). Rant/Rambling over.

And for the second: I think part of the heavy focus on appearance is nothing more than an opportunity to dabble in visual artistic expression. Very much like music, I have a great appreciation for artistic expression, but was blessed with only a modicum of actual artistic ability. I'll never be a great artist or Illustrator (or even good one)--I just don't have the time it would take for me to develop those skills. But I can (usually) manipulate and arrange images in a way that is aesthetically pleasing. That very well may be the closest I'll ever get to being able to call myself an artist. If so, I'll take it ;D

Appearance also adds a level of functionality and aesthetics into a build. Used correctly, images are great for breaking up text, and when you finally stumble across a perfect image that really conveys the vibe you are shooting for in your writing, it seems like it would be somewhat neglegent not to include it.

[/blockquote]

Hmm, yeah. I think that's pretty spot-on. Sometimes for me hitting that post button is like completing, you know? Sure I could just store the build on my computer but there's a closure on a project that only comes the moment it is posted. This is a social site, and so we are all here to interact and bounce off each other, and in many respects learn from and inspire each other. It is a gift when someone presses that like button and expresses that they enjoyed what you've done... I guess what I am trying to say is that posting for that reason alone needs to be balanced with the pleasure of simply doing. You, Shin, have always seemed to have that balance between fun and honest desire for that result. Legion would call that acting under Will and with Vivec's Fire above your head. I often never expect that latter result after years of training myself not to. I sometimes go back and look at what I've done and feel a certain pride in saying, "this is my thing what I done."

Intro and set up (inspiration)

Build specifics and overview (in a nutshell)

Skills and gameplay (what ya use and what ya do)

Gameplay (how ya do it)

Roleplay (why ya do it - usually optional)

Done.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/LissetteLongChapper]The Long-Chapper[/url] said:[/b]

I understand what you are saying, Shin and I agree. I hope I'm not misunderstood. What I mean is that I don't let the idea of an "audience" overwhelm me in the building process. That is probably a better statement of what I mean. 

[/blockquote]I can dig it ;D

I'm like that as well... now. But, true confessions: my first four builds I was an absolute wreck, and the closer to posting time I got, the worse it would get xD

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

....with Vivec's Fire above your head.

[/blockquote]Okay, that's such an awesome way of putting it... Legion's got a gift for that kind of thing.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

I sometimes go back and look at what I've done and feel a certain pride in saying, "this is my thing what I done."

[/blockquote]I don't blame you... The Avatava is still in my top ten favs ;D

(Although across the pond we say it thusly, "I done did dat")