Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

Discussion: Was Azura Responsible for the Dunmer's Appearence?

• AncienTzSlayeR

  

  Member
   

  April 11, 2015

  So Phil, the False Tribunal (just used this term for clarity) changed them, in your opinion? 

  Personally I am leaning towards the view that Azura changed the Chimer into the Dunmer, and I believe the other texts also point to this but in a philosophical / metaphorical way. I believe Scripture needs to be read in such a way that it confirms itself, unless one book is known or found to be false. 

  Also we must remember that Vivec was a poet, and that he himself states that breaking their oath to Azura was a sin, and that they have been punished for it.

  So Phil, the False Tribunal (just used this term for clarity) changed them, in your opinion? 

  Personally I am leaning towards the view that Azura changed the Chimer into the Dunmer, and I believe the other texts also point to this but in a philosophical / metaphorical way. I believe Scripture needs to be read in such a way that it confirms itself, unless one book is known or found to be false. 

  Also we must remember that Vivec was a poet, and that he himself states that breaking their oath to Azura was a sin, and that they have been punished for it.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 11, 2015

  Take my opinion with a pinch of salt but no and yes is my answer.

  I don't like that we are left believing that Trinimac's followers, the Orsimer, were transformed into the creatures we see them today after they rubbed the soil of Malacath over themselves yet we don't think that about the Chimer even though the same source declares they did the same. It's like we accept one half of a source but not the other.

  Even if the events are couched in as much metaphor and symbolism as one could wish, both races were changed that day.

  But here is where things get heavy. The Battle of Red Mountain was a Dragon break, a Red Moment. Things happened to make some things always have happened and I can't quite put my finger on what is troubling me. Mostly it comes from Five Songs: of King Wulfharth:

  Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

  Something big is happening here. Shor is back on the field of battle but is slain again. The whole thing feels like Convention all over again.

   As soon as Shor's army had got to Red Mountain, all the Devils and Dwarves fell upon them. Their sorcerers lifted the mountain and threw it onto Shor, trapping him underneath Red Mountain until the end of time. They slaughtered the sons of Skyrim, but not before King Wulfharth killed King Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc, and doomed his people

  Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc? Da fuq? "Doomed his people"? Again, da fuq?

  I can't shake the idea that at Red Mountain many thing were changed besides that which actively affected the Tribunal. So it could be that the Chimer did indeed have dark skin after rubbing Malacath' detritus over themselves but the Tribunal used the Dragon Break altered time to pin this change on Azura, for what reason I can't fathom. Probably to cement their place as new versions of the Good Daedra. That is another topic, though.

  Take my opinion with a pinch of salt but no and yes is my answer.

  I don't like that we are left believing that Trinimac's followers, the Orsimer, were transformed into the creatures we see them today after they rubbed the soil of Malacath over themselves yet we don't think that about the Chimer even though the same source declares they did the same. It's like we accept one half of a source but not the other.

  Even if the events are couched in as much metaphor and symbolism as one could wish, both races were changed that day.

  But here is where things get heavy. The Battle of Red Mountain was a Dragon break, a Red Moment. Things happened to make some things always have happened and I can't quite put my finger on what is troubling me. Mostly it comes from Five Songs: of King Wulfharth:

  Wulfharth, hoary Ysmir, went and made peace with the Orcs in spite of his Nordic blood, and they brought many warriors but no wizards at all. Many Nords could not bring themselves to ally with their traditional enemies, even in the face of Red Mountain. They were close to desertion. Then Wulfharth said: “Don't you see where you really are? Don't you know who Shor really is? Don't you know what this war is?” And they looked from the King to the God to the Devils and Orcs, and some knew, really knew, and they are the ones that stayed.

  Something big is happening here. Shor is back on the field of battle but is slain again. The whole thing feels like Convention all over again.

   As soon as Shor's army had got to Red Mountain, all the Devils and Dwarves fell upon them. Their sorcerers lifted the mountain and threw it onto Shor, trapping him underneath Red Mountain until the end of time. They slaughtered the sons of Skyrim, but not before King Wulfharth killed King Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc, and doomed his people

  Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc? Da fuq? "Doomed his people"? Again, da fuq?

  I can't shake the idea that at Red Mountain many thing were changed besides that which actively affected the Tribunal. So it could be that the Chimer did indeed have dark skin after rubbing Malacath' detritus over themselves but the Tribunal used the Dragon Break altered time to pin this change on Azura, for what reason I can't fathom. Probably to cement their place as new versions of the Good Daedra. That is another topic, though.

• AncienTzSlayeR

  

  Member
   

  April 12, 2015

  hmm that's actually rather convincing. 

  And you can change as many things into metaphor as you want to make something the way you want it to be I suppose. I could say that them covering themselves is the 'what you have done here is foul beyond measure' and then they were changed by Azura. But it sounds like the idea gets weaker and weaker with each 'metaphor' that I add.

  

  hmm that's actually rather convincing. 

  And you can change as many things into metaphor as you want to make something the way you want it to be I suppose. I could say that them covering themselves is the 'what you have done here is foul beyond measure' and then they were changed by Azura. But it sounds like the idea gets weaker and weaker with each 'metaphor' that I add.

  

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  April 12, 2015

  Exactly. That's the problem (and the joy of TES lore) with metaphor, it can be used in defence of nearly any argument. The Trinimac/Boethiah event could just the Orsimer creation myth and as such should be taken as lightly as any other race's myths. The difference is that it is presented as a historical event, almost a fact.

  The true question should probably be "what actually happened at Red Mountain?" but it is a heavy topic and I don't quite get it. Yet.

  Don't let my ramblings sway your opinions though. The biggest hurdle to my theory is the presence of golden skinned Chimer in ESO. Although I could argue that they look that way because the character expected them to, it seems pretty weak. So at the moment the most logical explanation is that the orthodox view is correct. The downside I that it renders a few sources obsolete.

  Exactly. That's the problem (and the joy of TES lore) with metaphor, it can be used in defence of nearly any argument. The Trinimac/Boethiah event could just the Orsimer creation myth and as such should be taken as lightly as any other race's myths. The difference is that it is presented as a historical event, almost a fact.

  The true question should probably be "what actually happened at Red Mountain?" but it is a heavy topic and I don't quite get it. Yet.

  Don't let my ramblings sway your opinions though. The biggest hurdle to my theory is the presence of golden skinned Chimer in ESO. Although I could argue that they look that way because the character expected them to, it seems pretty weak. So at the moment the most logical explanation is that the orthodox view is correct. The downside I that it renders a few sources obsolete.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  August 10, 2015

  EVen though I don't take the eating of Trinimac as literal I still prefer it as the reason to the Dunmer skin change than I do Azura's curse. Are the Chimer definitely golden skinned in ESO? The only picture of one I have seen is of Veloth and it's hard to tell but he looks dark skinned to me:

   

  EVen though I don't take the eating of Trinimac as literal I still prefer it as the reason to the Dunmer skin change than I do Azura's curse. Are the Chimer definitely golden skinned in ESO? The only picture of one I have seen is of Veloth and it's hard to tell but he looks dark skinned to me:

   

• Idesto

  

  Member
   

  August 10, 2015

  interesting Phil! I'd accepted as fact that it was Azura's doing. Thanks for this

  interesting Phil! I'd accepted as fact that it was Azura's doing. Thanks for this

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  August 10, 2015

  

  Apparently this is an ESO Chimer.

  

  Apparently this is an ESO Chimer.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  August 11, 2015

  Hm that still looks darker than a Altmer\Aldmer to me. Maybe they both are right?

  Hm that still looks darker than a Altmer\Aldmer to me. Maybe they both are right?

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 5, 2015

  Ok Phil hows this for a theory:

  What if it's not just the consumption of Trinimac that's an allegory, but the entire story. And it's an allegory of the history of Resdaynia?

  Boethia eating Trinimac could be talking about the Chinmer's absorption of the Dwemer in to their society (Boethia = Nerevar, Trinimac = Dumalacath Dwarf-Orc).

  Boethia talking through Trinimac could be the Tribunal using the Dwemer for their own goals (which Vivec freely admits).

  And his defecation could be the eventual backstabbing at Red Mountain where the Chimer were turned to Dunmer by rubbing the remains of a god on their face (being cursed by Azura) and Malacath was cast in to a place of choking air and ash where he cut the shame from his chest and the Orcs were born from the blood and ash (Dwemer being turned to ash by the use of the Numidian and remade as orcs?)

  Ok Phil hows this for a theory:

  What if it's not just the consumption of Trinimac that's an allegory, but the entire story. And it's an allegory of the history of Resdaynia?

  Boethia eating Trinimac could be talking about the Chinmer's absorption of the Dwemer in to their society (Boethia = Nerevar, Trinimac = Dumalacath Dwarf-Orc).

  Boethia talking through Trinimac could be the Tribunal using the Dwemer for their own goals (which Vivec freely admits).

  And his defecation could be the eventual backstabbing at Red Mountain where the Chimer were turned to Dunmer by rubbing the remains of a god on their face (being cursed by Azura) and Malacath was cast in to a place of choking air and ash where he cut the shame from his chest and the Orcs were born from the blood and ash (Dwemer being turned to ash by the use of the Numidian and remade as orcs?)

• Jo'daro Zahir

  

  Member
   

  September 5, 2015

  Relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3ixwt2/why_did_azura_ashen_the_ashlanders_skin_when_they/

  

  Relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/3ixwt2/why_did_azura_ashen_the_ashlanders_skin_when_they/