Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

Discussion: Was Azura Responsible for the Dunmer's Appearence?

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 5, 2015

  Interesting to note that in that discussion nobody mentions that all of the Chimer Ashlanders and House Mer were united at that point and it was only afterwards that the Ashlanders learned of the deceit.

  Interesting to note that in that discussion nobody mentions that all of the Chimer Ashlanders and House Mer were united at that point and it was only afterwards that the Ashlanders learned of the deceit.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 7, 2015

  I like it, it kind of jives with the transformation of Trinimac in myth being "too literal minded."

  I'm still on the timey-whimey side of the fence. I mean, when you look at all the Dragon Breaks they essentially happen at the same "time". That is to say that they all see a return of the Dawn Era non-linearity of time. So Mannimarco's Apotheosis, The Warp in the West, The Red Moment and the Marukhati Dance are all being told in this non-linear event. So that even though each event is separated by Eras, they all happen during that non-linear frame. So in that sense Akatosh was always a god of man, Mannimarco was always a god, ALMSIVI were always gods and the Dunmer always had dark skin and red eyes.

  The texts we see which offer contradictory evidence are the surviving fragments of what happened in an alternate time frame. Like quantum physics when a photon can be both a wave and a particle and the theory that when something can split like that a new timeline is created.

  Vivec is a good example of this. He was a street urchin/prostitute according to What My Lover Taught Me yet according to the 36 Lessons he was born from an egg impregnated by Alalexia and Sotha Sil, incubated by a netchman's wife. That's because both are true, the first being the timeline Vhek the mortal lived in, the second being the timeline which was written when Vivec the god wrote his own divinity.

  I like it, it kind of jives with the transformation of Trinimac in myth being "too literal minded."

  I'm still on the timey-whimey side of the fence. I mean, when you look at all the Dragon Breaks they essentially happen at the same "time". That is to say that they all see a return of the Dawn Era non-linearity of time. So Mannimarco's Apotheosis, The Warp in the West, The Red Moment and the Marukhati Dance are all being told in this non-linear event. So that even though each event is separated by Eras, they all happen during that non-linear frame. So in that sense Akatosh was always a god of man, Mannimarco was always a god, ALMSIVI were always gods and the Dunmer always had dark skin and red eyes.

  The texts we see which offer contradictory evidence are the surviving fragments of what happened in an alternate time frame. Like quantum physics when a photon can be both a wave and a particle and the theory that when something can split like that a new timeline is created.

  Vivec is a good example of this. He was a street urchin/prostitute according to What My Lover Taught Me yet according to the 36 Lessons he was born from an egg impregnated by Alalexia and Sotha Sil, incubated by a netchman's wife. That's because both are true, the first being the timeline Vhek the mortal lived in, the second being the timeline which was written when Vivec the god wrote his own divinity.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 7, 2015

  So with that in mind could it be that the Orsimer were created from the Dwemer BUT were also Orsimer the whole time?

  So with that in mind could it be that the Orsimer were created from the Dwemer BUT were also Orsimer the whole time?

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 7, 2015

  One of the things that came up most vividly when Vaz and I were discussing the Ayleid/Bosmer lore recently was that the Elven myths simply cannot be trusted, even the Dunmeri history. I touch on the subject in the Dunmer history article by quoting Vix:

  The Altmeri legend itself is a paradox, it occurs at a time suggesting that the Bosmer and Chimer left Aldmeris, but this in itself couldn't be as that happened after the elves were established on the Isles some time later. However, there are two groups that are widely thought to have split off here where there is little record of them. The Dwemer, who abandoned the Ancestors and and searched for 'gods of logic' while the other is the Maormer.

  So from that perspective I am as inclined to trust the orthodox view on Trinimac's transformation as I am to trust the Altmeri creation myth. So your idea that the orcs were retroactively created during the Red Moment and all the subsequent myths which mention this event are allegorical is a good one.

  That said, I am reluctant to say anything about Trinimac at the moment. Recently you posted a status about Mithras and a MK quote and Trinimac and I responded with surprise at the coincidence of your timing because I was discussing the subject with Matt privately at the time

  One of the things that came up most vividly when Vaz and I were discussing the Ayleid/Bosmer lore recently was that the Elven myths simply cannot be trusted, even the Dunmeri history. I touch on the subject in the Dunmer history article by quoting Vix:

  The Altmeri legend itself is a paradox, it occurs at a time suggesting that the Bosmer and Chimer left Aldmeris, but this in itself couldn't be as that happened after the elves were established on the Isles some time later. However, there are two groups that are widely thought to have split off here where there is little record of them. The Dwemer, who abandoned the Ancestors and and searched for 'gods of logic' while the other is the Maormer.

  So from that perspective I am as inclined to trust the orthodox view on Trinimac's transformation as I am to trust the Altmeri creation myth. So your idea that the orcs were retroactively created during the Red Moment and all the subsequent myths which mention this event are allegorical is a good one.

  That said, I am reluctant to say anything about Trinimac at the moment. Recently you posted a status about Mithras and a MK quote and Trinimac and I responded with surprise at the coincidence of your timing because I was discussing the subject with Matt privately at the time

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 7, 2015

  I remember reading someone's hypotheses where they put forth that maybe most of the Mer civilizations "origin stories" were bullshit beacuse the idea that they are all breakaway factions from the Altmer was straight up propaganda.

  Oh interesting, are you guys planning on doing something about Big Mac? 

  I remember reading someone's hypotheses where they put forth that maybe most of the Mer civilizations "origin stories" were bullshit beacuse the idea that they are all breakaway factions from the Altmer was straight up propaganda.

  Oh interesting, are you guys planning on doing something about Big Mac? 

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 7, 2015

  The Aldmer are an exercise in frustration. They say that they arrived from Aldmeris and split off into little groups which traveled Tamriel. The Dunmer claim the Dwemer were already in their promised land, the Bosmer claim they were the first in Valenwood which raises many questions about the Ayleids and why they didn't build cities in Valenwood until after the Bosmer arrived there. Never trust an elf!

  No I'm not doing any Malacath/Trinimac projects at the moment. On one hand this is a shame because all I need is a Malacath dossier to complete the House of Troubles but I don't want to do one until I have something about Trinimac to offer. I would say, though, the death and rebirth of "Big Mac" as Malacath is reminiscent of Mithras. It makes me wonder if we'll find a Trinimac in each culture if we look hard enough. Maybe Tsun has something to do with it in the Nord myths.

  The Aldmer are an exercise in frustration. They say that they arrived from Aldmeris and split off into little groups which traveled Tamriel. The Dunmer claim the Dwemer were already in their promised land, the Bosmer claim they were the first in Valenwood which raises many questions about the Ayleids and why they didn't build cities in Valenwood until after the Bosmer arrived there. Never trust an elf!

  No I'm not doing any Malacath/Trinimac projects at the moment. On one hand this is a shame because all I need is a Malacath dossier to complete the House of Troubles but I don't want to do one until I have something about Trinimac to offer. I would say, though, the death and rebirth of "Big Mac" as Malacath is reminiscent of Mithras. It makes me wonder if we'll find a Trinimac in each culture if we look hard enough. Maybe Tsun has something to do with it in the Nord myths.

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 8, 2015

  Yeah and do we even know when the Falmer came about?

  Zenithar and reiterations seem like a pretty good fit actually. Smithing aside they are both warrior gods and Zenithar is said to be the god "that always wins." He's also the god of payment in kind aka the sworn oath.

  "Come to me, Zenithar, for without you, like a child, I might fiddle and fret when only through struggle and labor may I craft a work worthy of your name and the name of my patron." 

  Yeah and do we even know when the Falmer came about?

  Zenithar and reiterations seem like a pretty good fit actually. Smithing aside they are both warrior gods and Zenithar is said to be the god "that always wins." He's also the god of payment in kind aka the sworn oath.

  "Come to me, Zenithar, for without you, like a child, I might fiddle and fret when only through struggle and labor may I craft a work worthy of your name and the name of my patron." 

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 8, 2015

  Also worth noting that Zenithar and Malacath both have artifacts which are maces with the same enchantments.

  Also worth noting that Zenithar and Malacath both have artifacts which are maces with the same enchantments.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 8, 2015

  I've doing a lot of reading about Trinimac recently, all the different theories and stuff and after all that I still can't get to grips with the issue.

  I've always been a "standard model" supporter of TES metaphysics, seeing the Wheel and the Eight Aedroth corpses acting as spokes and the gaps in the wheel being the Principalities. I've also been a supporter of the idea that each of these things are fluid, that as long as an entity fits the role it doesn't matter what you call it. That way each cultural deity can be a separate entity in its own right while still tracing its mythopoeic roots to one of the planets.

  Trinimac just flies in the face of that and I can't reconcile it into my standard model. I get from Shor Son of Shor that Trinimac, Tsun and Stuhn are connected, which means Trinimac's mythopoeic roots can be traced back to two corpse planets. I'm fine with that, it's pretty clear cut. But the name Trinimac implies there must be a third planet involved and most say it's Arkay. This comes from the book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes which says Arkay is a fusion of aspects of the Elven deity Xarxes with those of the primal Atmoran death-god Orkey.

  You can see the problem already. Who is Orkey? It seems that deity is one who also shares mythopoeic roots with multiple planets. So we've gone from the simple and clear Trinimac = Tsun, Tsun and Arkay to Trinimac = Tsun, Stuhn, Arkay, Orkey and Xarxes. Surely that blows the TRI in Trinimac out of the water?

  Don't get me wrong, I can see the story: Trinimac is a great knight and warrior like Stuhn and as such is heavily associated with death like Arkay. He is "killed" by Boethiah and so is dead like Tsun.

  Yet because of my "standard model" approach I kind of think I should see this story paralleled in other cultural beliefs yet I can't find it. I can see it in Dunmeri belief, I can see it in Nordic belief and I can see it in Altmeri belief but what are the others?

  I've doing a lot of reading about Trinimac recently, all the different theories and stuff and after all that I still can't get to grips with the issue.

  I've always been a "standard model" supporter of TES metaphysics, seeing the Wheel and the Eight Aedroth corpses acting as spokes and the gaps in the wheel being the Principalities. I've also been a supporter of the idea that each of these things are fluid, that as long as an entity fits the role it doesn't matter what you call it. That way each cultural deity can be a separate entity in its own right while still tracing its mythopoeic roots to one of the planets.

  Trinimac just flies in the face of that and I can't reconcile it into my standard model. I get from Shor Son of Shor that Trinimac, Tsun and Stuhn are connected, which means Trinimac's mythopoeic roots can be traced back to two corpse planets. I'm fine with that, it's pretty clear cut. But the name Trinimac implies there must be a third planet involved and most say it's Arkay. This comes from the book Tu'whacca, Arkay, Xarxes which says Arkay is a fusion of aspects of the Elven deity Xarxes with those of the primal Atmoran death-god Orkey.

  You can see the problem already. Who is Orkey? It seems that deity is one who also shares mythopoeic roots with multiple planets. So we've gone from the simple and clear Trinimac = Tsun, Tsun and Arkay to Trinimac = Tsun, Stuhn, Arkay, Orkey and Xarxes. Surely that blows the TRI in Trinimac out of the water?

  Don't get me wrong, I can see the story: Trinimac is a great knight and warrior like Stuhn and as such is heavily associated with death like Arkay. He is "killed" by Boethiah and so is dead like Tsun.

  Yet because of my "standard model" approach I kind of think I should see this story paralleled in other cultural beliefs yet I can't find it. I can see it in Dunmeri belief, I can see it in Nordic belief and I can see it in Altmeri belief but what are the others?

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  September 8, 2015

  Well the nords seen Tsun and Stuhn as brothers but I don't think that means they need to be connected any more than that. I like to see it as Trinimac is (Du)Malacath who is Zenithar who is Xarxes. 

  Well the nords seen Tsun and Stuhn as brothers but I don't think that means they need to be connected any more than that. I like to see it as Trinimac is (Du)Malacath who is Zenithar who is Xarxes.