Forums » Elder Scrolls

• Mannimarco

  

  • 161 posts
   

  May 1, 2015 4:12 PM EDT

   

  I have been noticing that all out bloodthirsty Warriors and Knights seem to be displayed more honorably in games and in real life. They get more credit for hack and slash killing while, yes their skill is great they become the main class that the majority of people want to become. Every little kid wants to grow up to be the big, strong and powerful brute. 

  

  What of the Assassin, Rogue, Agent, or Ranger? The stealth fighters are feared, yes but they are thought of to be evil and unworthy of honor,even the best or even the few of them that fight for freedom and good.  Their tactics are unconventional but effective and they are capable of defeating the best of knights...  Though more Kings and Emperors have stealth agents and assassins as body guards from their counterparts.

  

  What do you guys think? Do you agree with the reputations and views of Warriors and Rogues?

• MarkusMasterThief

  

  • 125 posts
   

  May 1, 2015 4:49 PM EDT

  Speaking as a rogue enthusiast and a writer who enjoys putting new spins on classic archetypes, I feel that the popular image of the Warrior and the Assassin are not without their historical and mythological merit; in wars, for example, it is the warrior that is looked upon as a hero for representing his or her home country and fighting to protect the innocent. In contrast, assassins are usually associated with dirty and underhanded tactics, and could conceivably be called "cheaters" for killing their targets at their most vulnerable. Furthermore, the practice of hiring a man to kill someone is a crime, as is the act of murder itself, therefore making the assassin look even more like a dishonorable and cold-blooded killer in the eyes of the average person. But in my opinion, there's always an exception to virtually every rule.

  To find one of these exceptions, for instance, let me take us back to the days of feudal Japan, wherein the sly and stealthy ninja matched wits with the mighty and honorable samurai. And here's where things get interesting; the reason why the ninja fought the samurai in the first place, and used the elements of surprise and stealth to do so, had more to do with them feeling oppressed by the ruling body of Japan than it had to do with senseless killing and criminal profit. And to make up for lacking the armor or professional training of the samurai, ninjas instead chose to rely on things like farm tools and craftiness to overcome their enemies, and it made them just as legendary as their age-old enemies. So there's one example of an exception to the popular image of rogues being disreputable and selfish.

  Warriors, too, have known exceptions to their popular image in ancient history. The Crusades, for example, had less to do with honor and defending the innocent from invaders, and more to do with greed and selfish conquest. While war in general can be a very loose topic and is widely open to interpretation, I think we can all agree that the Crusades were an utter train wreck of a "holy war", where nobody actually won anything worth bragging about in the long run. This right here is an example of knights and warriors not living up to the popular heroic image, and instead pillaging and destroying purely out of selfish want.

  So my point is, as I said earlier, there's exceptions to every rule. While there's no shortage of historical and literary backing for the popular images surrounding warriors and rogues (in the Elder Scrolls series, for instance, the "warrior" guilds are generally regarded as "good" while the "rogue" guilds are widely regarded as "evil"), it's not always the case. And while the stereotypical images can be fun and all, it's equally rewarding (and, in my opinion, wise) not to adhere to them entirely.

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  May 3, 2015 9:38 PM EDT

  MUCH love for Rangers and Rogues (and Ronin)! They're my first-time-playing go-to, and even after years of playing Oblivion and Skyrim, I still gravitate in that direction... just wired that way ;D
  
  In essence, you're talking about the difference between foot soldiers (much respect from ShinJin to the men and women of ALL countries who defend their people) and special ops. There can be no denying that special ops forces today enjoy a lot of prestige and respect. These are the ones who do their jobs quietly, with very little manpower, and usually in enemy territory... in real life that thought terrifies me, but in digital life it makes for a killer playstyle. Don't quite know why tanky hack-n-slash gets so much spotlight, when a light or no armor guerrilla warrior is so phenomenally challenging and fun to play.
  
  Assassins, though... I obviously play them wrong because I find the endless throat-slitting a bit tedious.
• Mannimarco

  

  • 161 posts
   

  May 3, 2015 9:48 PM EDT

  I completely understand ShinJin.  The Crusader and The Tank do leave a bigger mark on people then there more skilled counter parts. The Guerrilla soldier are quite the skilled opponent. 

  Though I know what you mean about the Endless Throat-slitting, really Assassin will use and means of killing as long as you dont attract any unwanted  attention. So you can be a unarmed assassin (With killmove mods) or a Poison/ Invisibility Potion Assassin if you wanted to. 

• Game

  

  • 40 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 12:50 AM EDT

  Human civilizations have needed more men to risk their lives in open combat than as assasins so warriors have been glorified. 

  I really do hope we get our sht together as a species and eventually do away with war. We've been trending in that direction at least.

• Gabe

  

  • 18 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 1:05 AM EDT

  I think Markus speaks the truth--warriors are associated with war, which usually excuses mass murder in the eyes of many. Since stealth tactics aren't generally used in war, rogues don't get this free pass and are seen as simple murderers. As a rogue enthusiast, though, I quite like these classes' respective connotations--what attracts me to rogue types is their iconoclastic nature, not caring about simpleton notions of honor or lawfulness, and affinity for the road less traveled. They strike me as wanting more from life than what it ostensibly has to offer. 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 4:17 AM EDT

  Don't quite know why tanky hack-n-slash gets so much spotlight, when a light or no armor guerrilla warrior is so phenomenally challenging and fun to play.

  Because stealth playstyles are so rare on this site, always outshined by the more popular warriors. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say the Companions and Oblivion's Fighter's Guild were hands-down the most popular factions. 

• Teineeva

  

  • 203 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 5:31 AM EDT

  I do hope that it's indeed the case. However I think that that trend may be a bit misleading. There are still a lot of wars, the difference is we don't get to know about them. Either because they were very short (this is where modern rogues/assassins come into play), or because they don't concern us, or at least the people in charge and the medias seem to be of this opinion.

  There have indeed not been any open wars in western Europe for 60, almost 70, years. But that does not mean these nations don't go to war. Everytime such a nation joins a conflict on either side it declares war upon the other, and there are still quite a lot of such occasions.

• Mannimarco

  

  • 161 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 11:12 AM EDT

  (It wouldn't directly me reply to Gabe but) Yes! Beautifully Said Gabe. I do agree that warriors do get a pass and Rouge/Assassins are in fact killers and murderers. They do have a certain and realistic look on life and what they do. On the other hand stealth tactics and assassin fighting styles can be put in open conflict. Look at the assassins of Assassin's Creed.
  
  But it's not the morality or tactics, its the skill and how they use it. Warriors have flaws and the block them while the increase their strengths. Assassin move and utilize their flaws and work with it.
  
  Don't be me wrong Warriors deserve their Honor and praise but do keep an open mind towards the Art of War and Death/Killing. I started this thread because I see warriors as the hero way to much and its okay but what happens when there too much enemies and their stronger, all your shields or broken.. what happens then. Not all assassins want to be bad.
  
  Also I'm not a fan of modern combat.. Guns are dumb. ANYONE can pull a trigger but not everyone can hold up the shield or string the bow.. I believe killing need to bloody and horrible so you can tell the Killers from the Dreamers.
• Mannimarco

  

  • 161 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 11:16 AM EDT

  Sorry for some misspelled words but Im using another computer and it auto correct is horrible and It wont let me edit.
• MarkusMasterThief

  

  • 125 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 11:24 AM EDT

  A wonderful defensive argument for rogues.  Well said.

• Teineeva

  

  • 203 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 11:52 AM EDT

  Yes indeed, but not every nation has nuclear weapons, hence there are still wars between people that have and people that don't. The members of the first group haven't been at war with each-other for a while (thank the gods for that though).

  I do wonder if they are ever going to be used though. I mean, now they are just arms of dissuasion, with every country that has them following that "If you throw one at me, I'll throw one at you!" mentality. I honestly doubt they will ever be used (again, thank the gods, if there are any, for that).

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 4:27 PM EDT

  I think it's important not to muddy the waters too much with real world parallels when dealing with fantasy archetypes. Although knowing the root of an archetype's inspiration is useful, sometimes what we now take for granted is far removed from reality. This is especially true when we mix concepts of good and evil which define most high fantasy settings. In reality concepts of good, evil and honour all depend on perspective. In fantasy these things are more easily defined.

  So from the point of view of a fantasy setting, the archetypical Rangers and Rogues by no means lack honour. The Rogue with a heart of gold is a very common theme, an everyman type thrust into greatness with an "end justifies the means" philosophy. These characters tend to be instantly relatable because in a lot of cases we can see some of ourselves in them.

  The Ranger is a class I have a huge respect for and is one of my favourites. These characters are like Paladins of the wilderness, operating alone and against fearsome enemies, far from the comforts of civilisation and aid. It's not only sensible but right for this class to use clever tactics, traps and techniques to bring down foes. Their sense of honour is unquestionable, as Aragorn explains:

  “"Strider" I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so.”

  As for warriors, I like their diversity. Be they gruff mercenaries, chivalric knights, or megalomaniac warlords, these characters have a straightforward approach to many things they do but it's a mistake to consider that simplicity to be boring. Sandor Clagane is the perfect example of honourable, viscous bloodthirsty warrior in my opinion. He's a monster but he also has a code making this archetype anything but simple.

  Assassin's as portrayed in TES I have no time for. I see no redeeming qualities and no depth to these guys. I understand the assassin archetype and even enjoyed Dishonoured's protagonist. Stealth kills or knockouts and a softly-softly approach is fun at times and being an Agent or Assassin in service to a realm is like an urban Ranger, doing questionable deeds in service to a greater good. The Dark Brotherhood doesn't allow any of this depth due to it's sadism and bloodthirsty ridiculousness.

• Mannimarco

  

  • 161 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 5:06 PM EDT

  Truth. Nothing but Truth Phil. Though do think of the Shadowscales. They had no choice but it was service to the King.

  I know that your saying about redemption to Assassins. Redemption is a thing not for them. Its acceptance. It takes a Killer with Intellect and skill to kill from shadows and not be seen EVER. All in service to one thing. Though the Dark Brotherhood don't act like assassin's. Which the official definition of Assassin is:

  "The Killer or murderer of an Important person (Usually by stealth attack) For religious or political reasons."

  The Dark Brotherhood's religion is just an excuse to kill without resentment. There not assassins they're killers. 

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 5:42 PM EDT

  ^THIS^

  (even the part about warriors ;D)

  (especially the part about the DB)

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 6:32 PM EDT

  Great point about the definition of assassin Manni. My dislike for them is something of a meme now but in truth if the DB were portrayed more like the Morag Tong I'd be a fan.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 6:34 PM EDT

  Dammit Shin, I want to play an assassin now  

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 6:49 PM EDT

  Do it! 

• ShinJin

  

  • 457 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 6:49 PM EDT

  If you're talking the Morag Tong, I don't blame you, but I fully agree with your sentiments about the DB; TES paints them so blatantly psychotic, that I just don't enjoy joining them. I'll do it if it fits the roleplay, but I've only ever been able to follow that questline all the way through once.

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 6:59 PM EDT

  Yeah me too. A one time thing I think

  Vaz, me were joke. I'll player a ranger though, maybe even a Bosmer right now

• Vazgen

  

  • 1483 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 7:03 PM EDT

  Playing an assassin is so much more awesome! Sneaking past the enemies like a ghost, keeping eyes on the mark, waiting for the right opportunity to strike and disappear like a lightning flash in the night... Feeling the power over the life of the opponent when he does not even know about your presence, knowing that you have outsmarted him and your dagger will soon feast upon his blood... Glorious! 

• Paws

  

  • 1595 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 7:12 PM EDT

  Damn, that's too poetic for a grunt like me  Maybe a Ranger who can do those things but also get stuck in if I get bored of skulking. Hey, I'm meeting you half way with the wood elf thing. I've been thinking that:

  

• Sithis83

  

  • 68 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 8:34 PM EDT

  Real world comparisons aside the reason for the virtuous warrior being more popular is because it's easier to build. Plus most people want to be the heroic good guy before they take the road of the evil bad guy. When you break down the builds warriors are all basically the same. Wear heavy armor, wield a brutish 2h weapon or an agile 1h weapon with shield. There is room for your own unique twist on it such as light armor or dual wielding, but they're all basically the same. Because of this they're also easier to customize to your own play style.
  
  Rouges are harder to build because they are a jack of all trades build. Most rouges will require the builder to be more proficient with game mechanics as they will build multiple skills in multiple disciplines. For instance my current build uses all 3 primary classes; with 1h and Archery from warrior, Light Armor and Speech from thief, Conjuration and Enchanting from mage. Rogues are easier to play as the Anti-Hero or Bad Guy which is why they have a bad reputation. They are also more structured and rigid making them harder to customize for your own play style.
  
  As for the Brotherhood being hated so much I don't get. Dictionary definition aside in any fantasy setting be it a game, movie, book etc. an assassin is someone contracted to kill someone else which is exactly what the Brotherhood does. Yes they have their twist on it by having the contractor perform the Black Sacramant and tieing their assassinations into their religion, but they still get contracted to kill and that's what they do. How is that any different than the Morag Tong or any assassin in any other fantasy setting? Oh and the dictionary definition is based on real world events hence the fact that being paid is not part of it. Truth be told those that get paid usually don't get caught and the act is blamed on someone or something else.
• Mannimarco

  

  • 161 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 10:38 PM EDT

  Vazgen Is right. I feel like playing one too. I might go Morag Tong because I never played one before. 

• Henson

  

  • 490 posts
   

  May 5, 2015 10:57 PM EDT

  I dipped a bit into exploring the non-stereotype sides of these class types.
  
  My Zealot was an example of a holy warrior who would use extreme violence to make sure evil and any wrongdoing was out to rest.
  
  From lore, my Buoyant Armiger is a sneak assassin that would use his skills to rid the world of evil and monsters.
  
  Really fun to flip the roles!