16 spokes, 16 gaps... Hmmm. Spokes don't run the entire diameter of a circle, only the radius. This technically has 16 spokes.
Ha Ok Al, let's call it instead a hurling disc with sticks in, vomiting its way through the void
I feel I should explain myself further. In fig 1 below we'll add the first spoke to the wheel stick to the disc. We'll call it Akatosh, or Time. Now time and space are linked, just like in rl physics. When time forms, so does space. When we look at it like that, Tom's Lorkhan cunundrum resolves itself. Consider these words from Eight Aedra:
is it any wonder that the Time God would hate the same-twin on the other end of the aurbrilical cord, the Space God? That any Creation would become so utterly dangerous because of that singular fear of a singular word's addition: "I AM NOT"?
Fig 1
Next we'll add another stick to the disc, this one we'll call Kynareth. In fig 2 below we can see that the "hub", Mundus, isn't yet formed.
In my final diagram below, we are adding another stick. This one we'll call Mara. With the third god added, Mundus is really starting to form. When all eight sticks are added, we get the image I posted earlier which appears to be 16 lines. When we understand that the formation of the hub relies upon the interaction of all eight sticks, we realise that centre isn't an addition, rather it is the result the lines intersecting one another.
Now, with each stick added, a gap between them is also added - a realm of Oblivion. In the first instance, there are two gaps, we could call them Hermaeus Mora and Namira. When we add another stick, two more appear. We could call them Hircine and Meridia. When we added the Mara stick, another two appeared. Let's call them Azura and Vaermina.
And so on, until we get all eight Aedra and sixteen Daedra represented by sticks and gaps. Yet there are always one extra of each Sheogorath and Lorkhan. Consider the 36 Lessons:
Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'
And what is this hole? The sithis shaped hole, maybe?
I hope this makes what I'm trying to get across a little clearer, although it is by no means the only way to see it, as Tom amd others have said. It's just how I like to look at it in order for it to make sense.
16 spokes, 16 gaps... Hmmm. Spokes don't run the entire diameter of a circle, only the radius. This technically has 16 spokes.
Ha Ok Al, let's call it instead a hurling disc with sticks in, vomiting its way through the void
I feel I should explain myself further. In fig 1 below we'll add the first spoke to the wheel stick to the disc. We'll call it Akatosh, or Time. Now time and space are linked, just like in rl physics. When time forms, so does space. When we look at it like that, Tom's Lorkhan cunundrum resolves itself. Consider these words from Eight Aedra:
is it any wonder that the Time God would hate the same-twin on the other end of the aurbrilical cord, the Space God? That any Creation would become so utterly dangerous because of that singular fear of a singular word's addition: "I AM NOT"?
Fig 1
Next we'll add another stick to the disc, this one we'll call Kynareth. In fig 2 below we can see that the "hub", Mundus, isn't yet formed.
In my final diagram below, we are adding another stick. This one we'll call Mara. With the third god added, Mundus is really starting to form. When all eight sticks are added, we get the image I posted earlier which appears to be 16 lines. When we understand that the formation of the hub relies upon the interaction of all eight sticks, we realise that centre isn't an addition, rather it is the result the lines intersecting one another.
Now, with each stick added, a gap between them is also added - a realm of Oblivion. In the first instance, there are two gaps, we could call them Hermaeus Mora and Namira. When we add another stick, two more appear. We could call them Hircine and Meridia. When we added the Mara stick, another two appeared. Let's call them Azura and Vaermina.
And so on, until we get all eight Aedra and sixteen Daedra represented by sticks and gaps. Yet there are always one extra of each Sheogorath and Lorkhan. Consider the 36 Lessons:
Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'
And what is this hole? The sithis shaped hole, maybe?
I hope this makes what I'm trying to get across a little clearer, although it is by no means the only way to see it, as Tom amd others have said. It's just how I like to look at it in order for it to make sense.
I get what you're saying. I guess my biggest problem with it all is trying to fit the Daedra into the spaces. Why do they have to reflect two parts of an Aedra? All of these spirits were created from each other so why are they linked to only one or two other spirits. Every one of them is relative.
It's an interesting way to organize the et'Ada but I think a better topic is the role of the Daedra. Why do they bother with something they wanted no part of? What is their role in the universe? Why did they create their own planes?
Mankar Camoran believed that Lorkhan was a Daedric Prince and his plane was Nirn, which is a fascinating theory to me. He certainly influences it thusly. Has this been completely refuted?
I get what you're saying. I guess my biggest problem with it all is trying to fit the Daedra into the spaces. Why do they have to reflect two parts of an Aedra? All of these spirits were created from each other so why are they linked to only one or two other spirits. Every one of them is relative.
It's an interesting way to organize the et'Ada but I think a better topic is the role of the Daedra. Why do they bother with something they wanted no part of? What is their role in the universe? Why did they create their own planes?
Mankar Camoran believed that Lorkhan was a Daedric Prince and his plane was Nirn, which is a fascinating theory to me. He certainly influences it thusly. Has this been completely refuted?
I get what you're saying. I guess my biggest problem with it all is trying to fit the Daedra into the spaces. Why do they have to reflect two parts of an Aedra? All of these spirits were created from each other so why are they linked to only one or two other spirits. Every one of them is relative.
They certainly don't have to be. Vazgen and Eli went off and decided that each Aedra has three corresponding Daedra. I personally like there being two simply because of the power of 3 in TES lore. It's all about split personality disorder. When Time said "hey, I'm me" the other spirits started to define themselves too.
It's an interesting way to organize the et'Ada but I think a better topic is the role of the Daedra. Why do they bother with something they wanted no part of? What is their role in the universe? Why did they create their own planes?
They still stayed to watch, not having the courage of their convictions like Magnus and the rest. There role seems to be as important as the Aedra in that they personify forces or concepts, without which ther is no change. I don't think they created their own planes, I think it is more accurate to say they are the planes.
Mankar Camoran believed that Lorkhan was a Daedric Prince and his plane was Nirn, which is a fascinating theory to me. He certainly influences it thusly. Has this been completely refuted?
Not completely. There is enough there for it to work if you argued enough. Do you think it would change anything?
I get what you're saying. I guess my biggest problem with it all is trying to fit the Daedra into the spaces. Why do they have to reflect two parts of an Aedra? All of these spirits were created from each other so why are they linked to only one or two other spirits. Every one of them is relative.
They certainly don't have to be. Vazgen and Eli went off and decided that each Aedra has three corresponding Daedra. I personally like there being two simply because of the power of 3 in TES lore. It's all about split personality disorder. When Time said "hey, I'm me" the other spirits started to define themselves too.
It's an interesting way to organize the et'Ada but I think a better topic is the role of the Daedra. Why do they bother with something they wanted no part of? What is their role in the universe? Why did they create their own planes?
They still stayed to watch, not having the courage of their convictions like Magnus and the rest. There role seems to be as important as the Aedra in that they personify forces or concepts, without which ther is no change. I don't think they created their own planes, I think it is more accurate to say they are the planes.
Mankar Camoran believed that Lorkhan was a Daedric Prince and his plane was Nirn, which is a fascinating theory to me. He certainly influences it thusly. Has this been completely refuted?
Not completely. There is enough there for it to work if you argued enough. Do you think it would change anything?
So I sat down for the last half hour to forty-five minutes and compiled some notes about the Aedra and Daedra used in this to beat out the pairings I thought most appropriate. I took the Aedra and Daedra, listed them and their descriptive spheres and ideals, then I started matching them at my own whim to each other until I got a list. Then I thought about some of these pairings and thought some of these Daedra are just darker versions of Aedra, and some Daedra are completely opposite. Some of these are really stretching it, I think, and others are too easy and make me suspicious.
I set it up this way: Aedra - Mirrored Daedra - Subverting Daedra. Mirrored Daedra have spheres identical to, or a darker version of, the Aedra. Subverting Daedra are Daedra with spheres and ideals completely at odds with the Aedra.
Akatosh - Peryite - Boethiah
Arkay - Azura - Namira
Dibella - Sanguine* - Sheogorath*
Julianos - Hermaeus Mora - Nocturnal
Kynareth - Meridia^ - Mehrunes
Mara - Mephala - Molag Bal
Stendarr - Malacath - Vaermina
Zenithar - Hircine - Clavicus Vile
*I couldn't decide who was which
^Meridia was my wild card, and that slot was the only one open.
So I sat down for the last half hour to forty-five minutes and compiled some notes about the Aedra and Daedra used in this to beat out the pairings I thought most appropriate. I took the Aedra and Daedra, listed them and their descriptive spheres and ideals, then I started matching them at my own whim to each other until I got a list. Then I thought about some of these pairings and thought some of these Daedra are just darker versions of Aedra, and some Daedra are completely opposite. Some of these are really stretching it, I think, and others are too easy and make me suspicious.
I set it up this way: Aedra - Mirrored Daedra - Subverting Daedra. Mirrored Daedra have spheres identical to, or a darker version of, the Aedra. Subverting Daedra are Daedra with spheres and ideals completely at odds with the Aedra.
Akatosh - Peryite - Boethiah
Arkay - Azura - Namira
Dibella - Sanguine* - Sheogorath*
Julianos - Hermaeus Mora - Nocturnal
Kynareth - Meridia^ - Mehrunes
Mara - Mephala - Molag Bal
Stendarr - Malacath - Vaermina
Zenithar - Hircine - Clavicus Vile
*I couldn't decide who was which
^Meridia was my wild card, and that slot was the only one open.
That's the spirit Tom!
I love how many different opinions there are on this subject, as I for one pin Meridia to Kyne with no issues.
I'm interested in how you say some made you suspicious, can you elaborate on that? Are you seeing where I'm coming from here, or are you suspicious of something else?
That's the spirit Tom!
I love how many different opinions there are on this subject, as I for one pin Meridia to Kyne with no issues.
I'm interested in how you say some made you suspicious, can you elaborate on that? Are you seeing where I'm coming from here, or are you suspicious of something else?
That's a very good point Ben. It's those mortal views which actually shape and alter the gods themselves, bending them to reflect a cultural viewpoint.
Stendarr is a good example of this. The god of "mercy" may have started out as a berseker Nord god called Stuhn who first proposed the taking of prisoners during war, a relatively merciful idea to the warrior culture of the north.
Since then that merciful aspect has come to define him, but also he picked up the "righteous rule by might" concept as a reflection from the Imperial Legion's influence.
Nowadays he's a witch hunting zealot of a god, the "mercy" of Stendarr is very subjective, especially from the point of view of a mild Azura worshipper!
That's a very good point Ben. It's those mortal views which actually shape and alter the gods themselves, bending them to reflect a cultural viewpoint.
Stendarr is a good example of this. The god of "mercy" may have started out as a berseker Nord god called Stuhn who first proposed the taking of prisoners during war, a relatively merciful idea to the warrior culture of the north.
Since then that merciful aspect has come to define him, but also he picked up the "righteous rule by might" concept as a reflection from the Imperial Legion's influence.
Nowadays he's a witch hunting zealot of a god, the "mercy" of Stendarr is very subjective, especially from the point of view of a mild Azura worshipper!
Or maybe Lorkhan's idea/trick was so perfect that everything proceeded as he had planned:
It could also be another reason why the Aedric split personality disorder this thread represents makes more sense, in that the "negative" personalities personified by the Daedra are just natural aspects cast off from their Aedric centre. It just so happened that Kyne's thrill and bloodthirstiness fit perfectly into the natural laws and is seen now as Hircine.
Or maybe Lorkhan's idea/trick was so perfect that everything proceeded as he had planned:
It could also be another reason why the Aedric split personality disorder this thread represents makes more sense, in that the "negative" personalities personified by the Daedra are just natural aspects cast off from their Aedric centre. It just so happened that Kyne's thrill and bloodthirstiness fit perfectly into the natural laws and is seen now as Hircine.