Skyrim Tips and Tricks » Discussions

Debate: Feeling Lucky?

• Paul England

  

  Member
   

  May 21, 2015

  As for attributes and the leveling system, I think Morrowind had a decent approach here:  the world is largely un-leveled, so you just don't worry about it.  You can get all attributes/skills to 100 anyway (I think), so it's just a matter of what you want to play.  

  Attributes in Oblivion were more problematic because the entire game world leveled with you, so leveling up due to skills like Alchemy could give you a hard time.

  Skyrim, I think, falls somewhere between MW and OB in terms of how the world works.  There's far too much level-tie-ins in Skyrim for my taste (i.e., you don't see certain loot until certain levels), but at least the changes, as you level, are less notable than in OB, where at a certain point all bandits would begin sporting high-level gear.  

  As for attributes and the leveling system, I think Morrowind had a decent approach here:  the world is largely un-leveled, so you just don't worry about it.  You can get all attributes/skills to 100 anyway (I think), so it's just a matter of what you want to play.  

  Attributes in Oblivion were more problematic because the entire game world leveled with you, so leveling up due to skills like Alchemy could give you a hard time.

  Skyrim, I think, falls somewhere between MW and OB in terms of how the world works.  There's far too much level-tie-ins in Skyrim for my taste (i.e., you don't see certain loot until certain levels), but at least the changes, as you level, are less notable than in OB, where at a certain point all bandits would begin sporting high-level gear.  

• ShinJin

  

  Member
   

  May 21, 2015

  Actually, H/M/S/L would be really cool... I'd support that :D

  BTW--I'm finishing up a thief that dumps all his points into stamina... he can run like a madman when detected, carry well over 600 pounds worth of loot for a dungeon crawl, and can hold his own when the thieves guild wants him to go fisticuffs. It's been pretty fun

  Actually, H/M/S/L would be really cool... I'd support that :D

  BTW--I'm finishing up a thief that dumps all his points into stamina... he can run like a madman when detected, carry well over 600 pounds worth of loot for a dungeon crawl, and can hold his own when the thieves guild wants him to go fisticuffs. It's been pretty fun

• Curse Never Dying

  

  Member
   

  May 21, 2015

  It would be cool to have attributes in skyrim if only to further diversify what we're able to create with these builds. Sadly we are left only with what the devs gave us. But fortunately there are subtle ways luck is implemented into the game. There's the obvious implementations such as mehrunes razor and the wabbajack. Then there's less commonly used things such as chaos damage, critical damage, paralysis perks, and even miraaks robes.

  It would be cool to have attributes in skyrim if only to further diversify what we're able to create with these builds. Sadly we are left only with what the devs gave us. But fortunately there are subtle ways luck is implemented into the game. There's the obvious implementations such as mehrunes razor and the wabbajack. Then there's less commonly used things such as chaos damage, critical damage, paralysis perks, and even miraaks robes.
• Brian Noland

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  Interesting question Teccam:

  I have two answers, since it seems this debate has kind of morphed into two questions.

  Do you want luck in future TES?

  Do you want attributes back?

  Regarding luck, I love the idea of luck being included, but I would go even further and give luck a perk tree.  Everyone's luck is started at a base of let's say 10, as you increase your luck by selecting it at level up you can unlock perks, this would be in lieu of actions raising your luck.  It would be a small tree, but some examples would be.

  Fighting Chance - 5% chance to reverse an opponent's kill animation on you.  (In other words, when that bandit chief is getting ready to decapitate you, you instead dodge at the last second and get an insta-kill on him).

  Gambler's Ambition - 5% chance to double the gold found in chests and on bodies of enemies.

  Regarding attributes, my answer is an emphatic "OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO".  I understand that some people enjoy the grinding of power-leveling and getting your attributes all +5 multipliers, but it broke immersion for me so many times it wasn't even funny.  Skyrim doesn't penalize you for working up your blacksmithing and while there is some grindy elements to the current system, you aren't going to gimp your character for late-game just because you didn't feel like leveling every magic school to get your magicka increased or having the use both blade, blunt, and hand to hand just to get your strength up.

  Interesting question Teccam:

  I have two answers, since it seems this debate has kind of morphed into two questions.

  Do you want luck in future TES?

  Do you want attributes back?

  Regarding luck, I love the idea of luck being included, but I would go even further and give luck a perk tree.  Everyone's luck is started at a base of let's say 10, as you increase your luck by selecting it at level up you can unlock perks, this would be in lieu of actions raising your luck.  It would be a small tree, but some examples would be.

  Fighting Chance - 5% chance to reverse an opponent's kill animation on you.  (In other words, when that bandit chief is getting ready to decapitate you, you instead dodge at the last second and get an insta-kill on him).

  Gambler's Ambition - 5% chance to double the gold found in chests and on bodies of enemies.

  Regarding attributes, my answer is an emphatic "OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO".  I understand that some people enjoy the grinding of power-leveling and getting your attributes all +5 multipliers, but it broke immersion for me so many times it wasn't even funny.  Skyrim doesn't penalize you for working up your blacksmithing and while there is some grindy elements to the current system, you aren't going to gimp your character for late-game just because you didn't feel like leveling every magic school to get your magicka increased or having the use both blade, blunt, and hand to hand just to get your strength up.

• SoulLess

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  Havin' Luck as something you can modify would make one hell of a playtrough with the overseer.

  Havin' Luck as something you can modify would make one hell of a playtrough with the overseer.

• Chris

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  I have a luck/chanced based build written up

  I have a luck/chanced based build written up

• Teccam

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  Did you feel like you had to "jump through hoops" to make Luck feel relevant, and/or make the build feel unique? After playing a Luck build, what kind of things would you change about the way it was (or wasn't) implemented in Skyrim? Or are you satisfied with it?

  Did you feel like you had to "jump through hoops" to make Luck feel relevant, and/or make the build feel unique? After playing a Luck build, what kind of things would you change about the way it was (or wasn't) implemented in Skyrim? Or are you satisfied with it?

• Teccam

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  The problem with critical hits is that they're more or less useless. Even if your sword is untempered, they add just a couple extra points of damage. Pretty much the only time I could see them being remotely useful is on a character playing on Adept difficulty (or even lower, ideally) who doesn't use any crafting skill, and no pre-enchanted weapons. And even then, there's an argument that those perk points are better allocated elsewhere.

  Now, on the other hand, if they'd properly made crits based on your weapon's "effective damage" as opposed to its base damage, I'd be more inclined to agree. But even then, they'd be more interesting to me if there were a way to modify the chance to proc beyond just the flat rate associated with each tier of the relevant perk. It'd be awesome if a savvy player could manage to get his crit rate up to 50% or something like that -- especially if crits actually did something significant, like a 1.5x damage multiplier.

  My argument isn't that there aren't effects/items that require some form of Luck to execute; rather, it's that those effects/items would be much more interesting to use if the player had some way to influence the likelihood of those effects being triggered. I'd get a lot more fun out of Ahzidal's Armor and the Dwarven Black Bow of Fate if I could increase their rates of activating by 25-50% (multiplicatively, not additively). Or a Paralyize enchantment with a 50%+ chance to work, rather than the 26% as in the vanilla game. Might as well just learn the spell or make a poison, both of which have a 100% chance to proc....

  The problem with critical hits is that they're more or less useless. Even if your sword is untempered, they add just a couple extra points of damage. Pretty much the only time I could see them being remotely useful is on a character playing on Adept difficulty (or even lower, ideally) who doesn't use any crafting skill, and no pre-enchanted weapons. And even then, there's an argument that those perk points are better allocated elsewhere.

  Now, on the other hand, if they'd properly made crits based on your weapon's "effective damage" as opposed to its base damage, I'd be more inclined to agree. But even then, they'd be more interesting to me if there were a way to modify the chance to proc beyond just the flat rate associated with each tier of the relevant perk. It'd be awesome if a savvy player could manage to get his crit rate up to 50% or something like that -- especially if crits actually did something significant, like a 1.5x damage multiplier.

  My argument isn't that there aren't effects/items that require some form of Luck to execute; rather, it's that those effects/items would be much more interesting to use if the player had some way to influence the likelihood of those effects being triggered. I'd get a lot more fun out of Ahzidal's Armor and the Dwarven Black Bow of Fate if I could increase their rates of activating by 25-50% (multiplicatively, not additively). Or a Paralyize enchantment with a 50%+ chance to work, rather than the 26% as in the vanilla game. Might as well just learn the spell or make a poison, both of which have a 100% chance to proc....

• Teccam

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  Luck as a skill is an interesting idea. That'd be a pretty rapid departure from previous TES games, but you know, I think it could work if done correctly. It comes with built-in "costs" -- that is, the opportunity cost of not selecting other perks that might improve your character.

  And, just as in prior games, how it wasn't associated with any skills, they could reverse that concept and make Luck not associated with any of the three umbrella archetypes (mage/warrior/stealth). Or they could go ahead and add back a couple other skills that a lot of us wish had never been removed. Maybe combine Athletics and Acrobatics into a single unified Agility skill, and then bring back Unarmed as well (or perhaps even combine Unarmed and Unarmored into a single tree).

  The cool thing about making Luck into a skill is that there's a lot of room for interesting perks there. Your suggestions are both intriguing. Perks could allow Luck to manifest without requiring complex formulas as well. e.g., rather than tying the loot distribution to your character's Luck value, you just give him a perk that's either "on" or "off". If it's "on", the game uses leveled lists that offer a better chance of finding rare loot or more coins or whatever. If it's off, the game uses the default leveled lists.

  Or how about a perk like "Hot Streak" -- successful dice rolls will grant a buff to the likelihood of the ensuing roll succeeding. e.g., Critical Hits with all three Armsman perks have a 20% chance of doing critical damage. "Hot Streak" could make it so that after you land one crit, your next swing has a 30% chance to crit.

  Luck as a skill is an interesting idea. That'd be a pretty rapid departure from previous TES games, but you know, I think it could work if done correctly. It comes with built-in "costs" -- that is, the opportunity cost of not selecting other perks that might improve your character.

  And, just as in prior games, how it wasn't associated with any skills, they could reverse that concept and make Luck not associated with any of the three umbrella archetypes (mage/warrior/stealth). Or they could go ahead and add back a couple other skills that a lot of us wish had never been removed. Maybe combine Athletics and Acrobatics into a single unified Agility skill, and then bring back Unarmed as well (or perhaps even combine Unarmed and Unarmored into a single tree).

  The cool thing about making Luck into a skill is that there's a lot of room for interesting perks there. Your suggestions are both intriguing. Perks could allow Luck to manifest without requiring complex formulas as well. e.g., rather than tying the loot distribution to your character's Luck value, you just give him a perk that's either "on" or "off". If it's "on", the game uses leveled lists that offer a better chance of finding rare loot or more coins or whatever. If it's off, the game uses the default leveled lists.

  Or how about a perk like "Hot Streak" -- successful dice rolls will grant a buff to the likelihood of the ensuing roll succeeding. e.g., Critical Hits with all three Armsman perks have a 20% chance of doing critical damage. "Hot Streak" could make it so that after you land one crit, your next swing has a 30% chance to crit.

• Mason

  

  Member
   

  May 22, 2015

  Lol, Bethesda didn't playtest the game...

  There are still alot of things that just make you go ???????????????? with Skyrim.

  Critical Hits are definitely nonsense. Then there's Bone Breaker that only transfers minimal damage and is uneffective on most enemies. Bleeding is nerfed by difficulty and weapon grade to the point of depression.....I still love running a 'bleeder' though.

  The biggest sin has to be Reflect Blows, that skill is just so BAD for a lvl 100 master perk.

  Lol, Bethesda didn't playtest the game...

  There are still alot of things that just make you go ???????????????? with Skyrim.

  Critical Hits are definitely nonsense. Then there's Bone Breaker that only transfers minimal damage and is uneffective on most enemies. Bleeding is nerfed by difficulty and weapon grade to the point of depression.....I still love running a 'bleeder' though.

  The biggest sin has to be Reflect Blows, that skill is just so BAD for a lvl 100 master perk.