Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

The many faces of Akatosh?

• Vazgen

  

  Member
   

  June 27, 2014

  This CHIM discussion has a connection to this one so I'll reply here. If following ESO example of gods and their powers anyone can become a god through somr ritual and enough followers. I don't like CHIM explanation as some kind of chosen one thing from Matrix. Becoming a god through philosophical question and realization of some idea is possible in a simulation like Matrix, not in real world and I don't consider TES as such a simulation. Vivec became a god through using Kagrenac's Tools on the Heart of Lorkhan. SPOILERS. Mannimarco in ESO wants to become a god by soul trapping Molag Bal in an Amulet of Kings and take his place. All of them required some sort of magical ritual and a connection to an existing deity to become gods, not philosophical contemplation. As for Cyrodiil transformation, there is shaping magic in TES, one can raise an island from the ocean etc.

  This CHIM discussion has a connection to this one so I'll reply here. If following ESO example of gods and their powers anyone can become a god through somr ritual and enough followers. I don't like CHIM explanation as some kind of chosen one thing from Matrix. Becoming a god through philosophical question and realization of some idea is possible in a simulation like Matrix, not in real world and I don't consider TES as such a simulation. Vivec became a god through using Kagrenac's Tools on the Heart of Lorkhan. SPOILERS. Mannimarco in ESO wants to become a god by soul trapping Molag Bal in an Amulet of Kings and take his place. All of them required some sort of magical ritual and a connection to an existing deity to become gods, not philosophical contemplation. As for Cyrodiil transformation, there is shaping magic in TES, one can raise an island from the ocean etc.
• Paws

  

  Member
   

  June 27, 2014

  Now I thought that Aka-Tusk was just a naming system to help illustrate the aspect theory I mentioned.

  Aka-tusk is Akatosh, Alduin is one of his aspects - or tusks - (the end time aspect), Auriel is another aspect or tusk (the begin time aspect).

  In order for any of this to be true, the Dragon Break theory needs to be acknowledged.

  Now I thought that Aka-Tusk was just a naming system to help illustrate the aspect theory I mentioned.

  Aka-tusk is Akatosh, Alduin is one of his aspects - or tusks - (the end time aspect), Auriel is another aspect or tusk (the begin time aspect).

  In order for any of this to be true, the Dragon Break theory needs to be acknowledged.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  June 27, 2014

  I think it's an important distinction to add that both Vivec and Talos were already gods when they realises CHIM - like you already need to have power before these things are even possible.

  Interesting spoiler about Mannimarco. I thought he had attained god-hood during The Warp in the West.

  I think it's an important distinction to add that both Vivec and Talos were already gods when they realises CHIM - like you already need to have power before these things are even possible.

  Interesting spoiler about Mannimarco. I thought he had attained god-hood during The Warp in the West.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  June 27, 2014

  Not only that, but Akatosh isn't Aldmeri seeing how the Aldmeri version is Auri-El and "Akatosh" was already present in both cultures meaning he wasn't literally made up by Alessia

  You realise in this sentence you are saying Akatosh isn't Aldmeri then go on to say he is present in both cultures? Which is it? Shezarr and the Divines makes it clear that Akatosh is an Elven deity co-opted into the Eight Divines by Alessia. The Selective kept the name but removed the Elven-ness, retroactively creating a new Dragon and allowing Auriel to ascend.

  Also, if Akatosh is the same being in all cultures then why would he send Pelinal back "from the future time" to help the rebellion against his own people and thwart his attempt to invade Elsweyr. Refusing to acknowledge the success of the Selective goes against logic. 

  The myth motifs each race have in common is important but doesn't prove anything. I think the book The Light and the Dark as it's take on things backs up Gods and Worship.

  Not only that, but Akatosh isn't Aldmeri seeing how the Aldmeri version is Auri-El and "Akatosh" was already present in both cultures meaning he wasn't literally made up by Alessia

  You realise in this sentence you are saying Akatosh isn't Aldmeri then go on to say he is present in both cultures? Which is it? Shezarr and the Divines makes it clear that Akatosh is an Elven deity co-opted into the Eight Divines by Alessia. The Selective kept the name but removed the Elven-ness, retroactively creating a new Dragon and allowing Auriel to ascend.

  Also, if Akatosh is the same being in all cultures then why would he send Pelinal back "from the future time" to help the rebellion against his own people and thwart his attempt to invade Elsweyr. Refusing to acknowledge the success of the Selective goes against logic. 

  The myth motifs each race have in common is important but doesn't prove anything. I think the book The Light and the Dark as it's take on things backs up Gods and Worship.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  June 27, 2014

  Vaz, we agree on this. It explains how each creation myth and cultural viewpoint can all be simultaneously correct. It means we don't have to shoe-horn any of the cultural gods - be they part of the Redguard or Altmeri or Khajiit - into NIne Divine roles. It also gives us the freedom to acknowledge the possibility of the monomyth as a single event that is remembered differently by each race while keeping each cultural deity a separate entity.

  It's great because all the gods become possible and correct, their influence changing with the political and cultural upheavals of the world. As below, so above.

  Vaz, we agree on this. It explains how each creation myth and cultural viewpoint can all be simultaneously correct. It means we don't have to shoe-horn any of the cultural gods - be they part of the Redguard or Altmeri or Khajiit - into NIne Divine roles. It also gives us the freedom to acknowledge the possibility of the monomyth as a single event that is remembered differently by each race while keeping each cultural deity a separate entity.

  It's great because all the gods become possible and correct, their influence changing with the political and cultural upheavals of the world. As below, so above.

• Chris

  

  Member
   

  June 27, 2014

  It has, the Warp in the West

  It has, the Warp in the West
• Vazgen

  

  Member
   

  June 28, 2014

  He wants to, but the player stops him :D If you have to be a god to realise CHIM than it has no point. Vivec did it but other members of Tribunal did not and they were all equal in power and godhood :D

  He wants to, but the player stops him :D If you have to be a god to realise CHIM than it has no point. Vivec did it but other members of Tribunal did not and they were all equal in power and godhood :D
• Paws

  

  Member
   

  June 28, 2014

  I'm not too sure about CHIM, although it's clear that it's a separate thing to divinity. Why this is the case alludes me.

  I'm not too sure about CHIM, although it's clear that it's a separate thing to divinity. Why this is the case alludes me.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  Member
   

  June 28, 2014

  The purpose of CHIM, from a storytelling standpoint, is something I've never really understood. You have a character who is nigh-omnipotent but they don't change anything because they are the world (or something like that). Which is a pretty good reason for why this all powerful character is very inactive, but why even use the concept then?

  The purpose of CHIM, from a storytelling standpoint, is something I've never really understood. You have a character who is nigh-omnipotent but they don't change anything because they are the world (or something like that). Which is a pretty good reason for why this all powerful character is very inactive, but why even use the concept then?
• Paws

  

  Member
   

  June 28, 2014

  Matt I'm in the dark here as much as you.

  To try and move away from the CHIM discussion, can I ask what your stance is on the relationships between Yokudan deities and the Cyrodiilic, Khajitti, Altmeri, Bosmeri (etc...) religions?

  I mention in the OP that we hardly ever draw parallels between Redguard gods and "western" gods. I know there are sources that say Tava is Kynareth and so on but I find the conclusions to be dissatisfying.

  Spectre asserts Akatosh was there before, this is proven by him being the lead Deity of the Ra Gada before they came to Tamriel. What's your opinion on this?

  Does the differences in the creation myths between the Redguards and the rest bring you to the conclusion that they are simply different deities? Or do you believe that they started off as the same but split into multiple as theorised in Gods and Worship?

  Or are the differences down to the fact that Yokuda is a memory of a time before, like Aldmeris, therefore subject to a different creation event than Tamriel?

  Matt I'm in the dark here as much as you.

  To try and move away from the CHIM discussion, can I ask what your stance is on the relationships between Yokudan deities and the Cyrodiilic, Khajitti, Altmeri, Bosmeri (etc...) religions?

  I mention in the OP that we hardly ever draw parallels between Redguard gods and "western" gods. I know there are sources that say Tava is Kynareth and so on but I find the conclusions to be dissatisfying.

  Spectre asserts Akatosh was there before, this is proven by him being the lead Deity of the Ra Gada before they came to Tamriel. What's your opinion on this?

  Does the differences in the creation myths between the Redguards and the rest bring you to the conclusion that they are simply different deities? Or do you believe that they started off as the same but split into multiple as theorised in Gods and Worship?

  Or are the differences down to the fact that Yokuda is a memory of a time before, like Aldmeris, therefore subject to a different creation event than Tamriel?