Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

What is Lore to You: Chapter 2

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Back in 2014 Scholar Vazgen started the discussion What is Lore to You in which he talks about the different ways lore is presented in gaming media and which style you prefer: the interpretive format use by The Elder Scrolls Series or the Codex and encyclopedic style seen in Bioware games such as Mass Effect or Dragon Age.

  Rather than rehash that topic, the aim of this discussion is to take a look at how the lore of The Elder Scrolls series resonates with you.

  So what I would like to know is:

  1. How do you use lore? When you are involved in a project or are researching a concept, how much does the lore dictate what you can and can't do?
  2. How do you deal with a scenario in which there is a gap in the lore? Is such a gap a restriction or a freedom?
  3. How do you deal with a scenario in which the lore contradicts your original idea?
  4. Is the depth of setting sometimes too much and off-putting?
  5. Or are you comfortable navigating Apocrypha's many shelves?
  6. Anything else relevant in terms of how the setting's lore resonates within you. Is there anything you feel would help make The Lore Group more welcoming?

  Over the years I have tried to dispel the aura of elitism surrounding TES lore and have attempted to make it more accessible. I remember when I started out how much fear I felt when approaching the subject as the depth of the setting was so vast that I felt I could never contribute anything of value. There was always the risk of being put down or criticised. That feeling of insecurity I felt then is why I have tried to make lore my dragon to slay.

  However, I am not sure I have achieved that aim. So I would like your help and your feedback about how lore stirs your spirit - or if you simply don't care enough about it. All opinions are valid, this is a safe place to discuss the topic and any exchange of snark designed to belittle another will not be tolerated. So please, say whatever you feel like saying whether it be a long reply or a short response I will listen.

  Black Book by The Minttu

  To wrap this introduction up, I would like to leave you with a quote from Lawrence Schick, Lead Loremaster for Elder Scrolls Online, in which he explains how the lore of TES works and summarises nicely the way I feel it should be embraced:

  "...all the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

  Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

  What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past.

  So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks."

  Back in 2014 Scholar Vazgen started the discussion What is Lore to You in which he talks about the different ways lore is presented in gaming media and which style you prefer: the interpretive format use by The Elder Scrolls Series or the Codex and encyclopedic style seen in Bioware games such as Mass Effect or Dragon Age.

  Rather than rehash that topic, the aim of this discussion is to take a look at how the lore of The Elder Scrolls series resonates with you.

  So what I would like to know is:

  1. How do you use lore? When you are involved in a project or are researching a concept, how much does the lore dictate what you can and can't do?
  2. How do you deal with a scenario in which there is a gap in the lore? Is such a gap a restriction or a freedom?
  3. How do you deal with a scenario in which the lore contradicts your original idea?
  4. Is the depth of setting sometimes too much and off-putting?
  5. Or are you comfortable navigating Apocrypha's many shelves?
  6. Anything else relevant in terms of how the setting's lore resonates within you. Is there anything you feel would help make The Lore Group more welcoming?

  Over the years I have tried to dispel the aura of elitism surrounding TES lore and have attempted to make it more accessible. I remember when I started out how much fear I felt when approaching the subject as the depth of the setting was so vast that I felt I could never contribute anything of value. There was always the risk of being put down or criticised. That feeling of insecurity I felt then is why I have tried to make lore my dragon to slay.

  However, I am not sure I have achieved that aim. So I would like your help and your feedback about how lore stirs your spirit - or if you simply don't care enough about it. All opinions are valid, this is a safe place to discuss the topic and any exchange of snark designed to belittle another will not be tolerated. So please, say whatever you feel like saying whether it be a long reply or a short response I will listen.

  Black Book by The Minttu

  To wrap this introduction up, I would like to leave you with a quote from Lawrence Schick, Lead Loremaster for Elder Scrolls Online, in which he explains how the lore of TES works and summarises nicely the way I feel it should be embraced:

  "...all the lore in the game is delivered from the standpoint of people in Tamriel. In that way, Elder Scrolls is different from most fantasy campaign worlds, right? I mean, the typical paradigm, you know - George RR Martin with Westeros, Tolkien with Middle Earth, the familiar D&D worlds of The Forgotten Realms or the world of Greyhawk - those all have histories and backgrounds that are all laid out and they’ve all got some lore-daddy who decided everything and everything is ‘this is how it is’, so everything works within the envelope of things that are already decided.

  Elder Scrolls - Tamriel - does not follow that paradigm. In Elder Scrolls, all lore is delivered not from on high by revelation, but from people who live their lives in the game, in the world of the game, and based on their beliefs. So that does two things for us: It means the lore always carries not just information about what the person is talking about, but also information about the person and their culture. Because the way the lore is delivered tells you how they believe things actually work in the world.

  What this means, of course, is that people have different viewpoints - these viewpoints sometimes contradict each other, and so sometimes we have players saying “alright, this person believes that, and that person believes this other thing, but which one’s the real thing?” Well... it’s not a world like ours. In a world like ours, where you can sort of trust in science and say “well yes, people have different beliefs but I know there is an objective reality.” This is a world of myth. This is a world where reality is actually changeable, where the Divines can change not only what happens going forward, but what has happened in the past.

  So, you know, the idea there is an objective reality behind all these different people’s opinions is not necessarily the case in the world of Tamriel. So listen to what all these different people have to say, make up your own mind, make up your own beliefs about what happened and you’re as liable - since you’re playing in their world and you’re playing a character in their world - what you think happened is as legitimate as what that NPC thinks."

• Justiciar Thorien

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Well, I'll be the first Aldmer here))

  1. To me the lore is the guide that helps me feel at home in TES world. When I started playing Skyrim I felt weird, not knowing anything about that big complicated world. My character was like an alien there, a person without memories, without any knowledge, totally lost. The more I studied the Lore, the more familiar and real Skyrim feels to me as I play.

  2. Gaps in the lore... I don't like those. They put me in back into the dark. When there's not enough data about something, there's a possibility for a mistake, and that makes me dig further and further until I can fill that gap as much as possible.

  3. When my idea contradicts the lore, it means that I am mistaken. Mistakes must be corrected))

  4 and 5. Depth is good, it makes you even surer and more at home in the world, gives you even more freedom to make the worldview and beliefs of your character deeper and more like in real life.

  Sometimes to know the truth the perspective of a mortal is not enough. Sometimes you need the perspective of a god to understand things better. At least I need. The shelves of Apocrypha are the place of peace and comfort to this restless elf)))

  6. I can only hope that in attempts to make Lore Group more welcoming you won't lodpse its actual essence. When I first came here, this group was a bit like a college. Colleges aren't supposed to be simple like the first grade. For those who wants to learn the first grade, there is UESP and us here to help them out.

  Well, I'll be the first Aldmer here))

  1. To me the lore is the guide that helps me feel at home in TES world. When I started playing Skyrim I felt weird, not knowing anything about that big complicated world. My character was like an alien there, a person without memories, without any knowledge, totally lost. The more I studied the Lore, the more familiar and real Skyrim feels to me as I play.

  2. Gaps in the lore... I don't like those. They put me in back into the dark. When there's not enough data about something, there's a possibility for a mistake, and that makes me dig further and further until I can fill that gap as much as possible.

  3. When my idea contradicts the lore, it means that I am mistaken. Mistakes must be corrected))

  4 and 5. Depth is good, it makes you even surer and more at home in the world, gives you even more freedom to make the worldview and beliefs of your character deeper and more like in real life.

  Sometimes to know the truth the perspective of a mortal is not enough. Sometimes you need the perspective of a god to understand things better. At least I need. The shelves of Apocrypha are the place of peace and comfort to this restless elf)))

  6. I can only hope that in attempts to make Lore Group more welcoming you won't lodpse its actual essence. When I first came here, this group was a bit like a college. Colleges aren't supposed to be simple like the first grade. For those who wants to learn the first grade, there is UESP and us here to help them out.

• Karver the Lorc

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  1. How do you use lore? When you are involved in a project or are researching a concept, how much does the lore dictate what you can and can't do?

  How do I use Lore? How it should be used, I guess Lore of TES is very limited in certain areas, but very open in different areas, so I really don ´t have definite answer for this. Lore is as it is: viewed from the point of people, not by Anu, and I´m completely fine with that.

  2. How do you deal with a scenario in which there is a gap in the lore? Is such a gap a restriction or a freedom?

  Gap in the lore is...fun. TES lore has tendencies to skip few details and very often you have to fill the gap, using several sources, understanding the topic more. It´s almost like connection two dots, and for me it´s fun to theorize about those gaps.

  3. How do you deal with a scenario in which the lore contradicts your original idea?

  With berserker rage and frustration But seriously, I usually start from the scratch, though I´m not really happy about it.

  4. Is the depth of setting sometimes too much and off-putting?

  Never!

  5. Or are you comfortable navigating Apocrypha's many shelves?

  Comfortable? It´s fun!

  6. Anything else relevant in terms of how the setting's lore resonates within you. Is there anything you feel would help make The Lore Group more welcoming?

  Yeah, people should stop being afraid of Lore. It´s nothing but reading, and if someone is scared of reading...So, if people would stop being afraid of reading sources, it would make Lore Group more welcoming.

  1. How do you use lore? When you are involved in a project or are researching a concept, how much does the lore dictate what you can and can't do?

  How do I use Lore? How it should be used, I guess Lore of TES is very limited in certain areas, but very open in different areas, so I really don ´t have definite answer for this. Lore is as it is: viewed from the point of people, not by Anu, and I´m completely fine with that.

  2. How do you deal with a scenario in which there is a gap in the lore? Is such a gap a restriction or a freedom?

  Gap in the lore is...fun. TES lore has tendencies to skip few details and very often you have to fill the gap, using several sources, understanding the topic more. It´s almost like connection two dots, and for me it´s fun to theorize about those gaps.

  3. How do you deal with a scenario in which the lore contradicts your original idea?

  With berserker rage and frustration But seriously, I usually start from the scratch, though I´m not really happy about it.

  4. Is the depth of setting sometimes too much and off-putting?

  Never!

  5. Or are you comfortable navigating Apocrypha's many shelves?

  Comfortable? It´s fun!

  6. Anything else relevant in terms of how the setting's lore resonates within you. Is there anything you feel would help make The Lore Group more welcoming?

  Yeah, people should stop being afraid of Lore. It´s nothing but reading, and if someone is scared of reading...So, if people would stop being afraid of reading sources, it would make Lore Group more welcoming.

• A-Pocky-Hah!

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Time to venture into Hermy 'Pervy' Mora's realm once again.

  1. I kinda use lore on 80% of my works. I don't why but ever since I've delve deep (but not too deep) into TES lore, it has been like my bread-and-butter (from Apocrypha) of my projects. Even outside of TES, lore has helped me more in writing a story. 
  2. In terms of a gap in the lore, I have to look at how large that gap is. My rule is simple: 'If there's not enough lore about it, add your own as long as it stays true to the subject and is logical.' There is the problem of unfinished lore. Imagine making a project that's based on unfinished lore, then suddenly in TES 6, they added new stuff into that lore. For lore discussions, there's no problem about that. They could just reupdate it. But just think of the amount of hair being ripped of your head if your story just had a change of lore. (But hey, not all fanfics can be 100% lore-accurate amirite?)
  3. Well that depends really. My ideas don't implement that much amount of lore. But like I said in 1. 'If there's not enough lore about it, add your own as long as it stays true to the subject and is logical.'
  4. Well yeah. My brain isn't made to understand the whole Lorkhan/Shor/Talos or Anu/Padomay fact/theory (what ever you wanna call it) thing. It takes time for me to understand most of TES lore (Heck, I think I only know 10% of it). But the lore articles help a lot for me. (Even though I get a brain meltdown half of the time.)
  5. Yes, though it does smell of dead scholars, slimy tentacles and black goop. Plus I could hear the faint sound of someone getting a loregasm from time to time.
  6. Not really. But yeah, to quote Thorien's words, 'When I first came here, this group was a bit like a college. Colleges aren't supposed to be simple like the first grade.' This place does in fact feel like a college. It takes time to get use to it but I think it's better than UESP in terms of lore articles. Though I would consider trying to make an Aldmeris/Ayleidoon language guide here. You know, for those Altmers out there.

  Time to venture into Hermy 'Pervy' Mora's realm once again.

  1. I kinda use lore on 80% of my works. I don't why but ever since I've delve deep (but not too deep) into TES lore, it has been like my bread-and-butter (from Apocrypha) of my projects. Even outside of TES, lore has helped me more in writing a story. 
  2. In terms of a gap in the lore, I have to look at how large that gap is. My rule is simple: 'If there's not enough lore about it, add your own as long as it stays true to the subject and is logical.' There is the problem of unfinished lore. Imagine making a project that's based on unfinished lore, then suddenly in TES 6, they added new stuff into that lore. For lore discussions, there's no problem about that. They could just reupdate it. But just think of the amount of hair being ripped of your head if your story just had a change of lore. (But hey, not all fanfics can be 100% lore-accurate amirite?)
  3. Well that depends really. My ideas don't implement that much amount of lore. But like I said in 1. 'If there's not enough lore about it, add your own as long as it stays true to the subject and is logical.'
  4. Well yeah. My brain isn't made to understand the whole Lorkhan/Shor/Talos or Anu/Padomay fact/theory (what ever you wanna call it) thing. It takes time for me to understand most of TES lore (Heck, I think I only know 10% of it). But the lore articles help a lot for me. (Even though I get a brain meltdown half of the time.)
  5. Yes, though it does smell of dead scholars, slimy tentacles and black goop. Plus I could hear the faint sound of someone getting a loregasm from time to time.
  6. Not really. But yeah, to quote Thorien's words, 'When I first came here, this group was a bit like a college. Colleges aren't supposed to be simple like the first grade.' This place does in fact feel like a college. It takes time to get use to it but I think it's better than UESP in terms of lore articles. Though I would consider trying to make an Aldmeris/Ayleidoon language guide here. You know, for those Altmers out there.
• Paws

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Thank you Thorien  Good thoughts here, although before I continue I must advise that your last point may require moderation. It is a valid opinion but I really need this group to be as welcoming to completely new comers to Skyrim as it is to those more familiar with the setting. The way you have phrased it could put people off and we wouldn't want that, would we? If this is an institution dedicated to learning, an Ysmir Collective or a House of Orsimer Glories, then it should cater to all levels of knowledge from the beginner to the experienced seeker.

  1. I like this, so you were inspired by the vastness of the setting and your connection to character to delve deeper? Do you think the next game should showcase or present the lore differently, like some background prologue or something? Or would you say that the way it is presented now, with the onus on the player to learn is a strength of the setting? 

  2. Interesting but not unexpected  Gaps are a shackle to you, not a freedom. What do you think would help ease that? If you saw a believable, in-universe monologue addressing a gap, would you find that fan-written filler piece sufficient for freedom?

  3. More interesting insights. What if the only existing source was written by a scholar of questionable qualifications? Why would his opinion carry more weight than that which you come up with in character?

  Thank you Thorien  Good thoughts here, although before I continue I must advise that your last point may require moderation. It is a valid opinion but I really need this group to be as welcoming to completely new comers to Skyrim as it is to those more familiar with the setting. The way you have phrased it could put people off and we wouldn't want that, would we? If this is an institution dedicated to learning, an Ysmir Collective or a House of Orsimer Glories, then it should cater to all levels of knowledge from the beginner to the experienced seeker.

  1. I like this, so you were inspired by the vastness of the setting and your connection to character to delve deeper? Do you think the next game should showcase or present the lore differently, like some background prologue or something? Or would you say that the way it is presented now, with the onus on the player to learn is a strength of the setting? 

  2. Interesting but not unexpected  Gaps are a shackle to you, not a freedom. What do you think would help ease that? If you saw a believable, in-universe monologue addressing a gap, would you find that fan-written filler piece sufficient for freedom?

  3. More interesting insights. What if the only existing source was written by a scholar of questionable qualifications? Why would his opinion carry more weight than that which you come up with in character?

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

   Agreed on all counts. And I know how you aim to tackle point 6...

   Agreed on all counts. And I know how you aim to tackle point 6...

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Brother Axius! Thanks for taking part 

  1. Glad to hear this, honestly. My motto is that lore should not come between you and an idea. The lore should support you, not make you change shape in order to make it fit. If that means picking and choosing sources which only support you despite there being an opposing view them that is great - I do it all the time 

  2. You are indeed rite  I know poor Lissette has gone through similar hair-rippage. It is a shame in a way, to limit ones imagination of a place in order to be lore accurate. PGE 1st Ed is one of my all time favourite sources and it is so inaccurate it is laughable. Yet I never dismiss it and use it at every opportunity  

  3. I may steal your motto and put it in big shiny letters 

  4. I think you raise a point that is totally valid. Metaphysics is what lore is known for and it could be why it has a reputation of being deep and scary. Yet the down to earth stuff, what foods each culture favours, how Nords use honey in smithing, what songs or humour each race is known for... all these things are lore as much as the deep stuff is. I for one would love that character-driven lore more prominently displayed here.

  5. 

  6. See, this is my area of weakness. I like to take a source and subvert it, reinterpret it and breathe it back out. Academia is not my forte and that is why I have never tackled a project like that. I once tried to do something like that with the Dragon language but got carried away by the evocative inscriptions and wondering just how pretty Princess Ysra was 

  Brother Axius! Thanks for taking part 

  1. Glad to hear this, honestly. My motto is that lore should not come between you and an idea. The lore should support you, not make you change shape in order to make it fit. If that means picking and choosing sources which only support you despite there being an opposing view them that is great - I do it all the time 

  2. You are indeed rite  I know poor Lissette has gone through similar hair-rippage. It is a shame in a way, to limit ones imagination of a place in order to be lore accurate. PGE 1st Ed is one of my all time favourite sources and it is so inaccurate it is laughable. Yet I never dismiss it and use it at every opportunity  

  3. I may steal your motto and put it in big shiny letters 

  4. I think you raise a point that is totally valid. Metaphysics is what lore is known for and it could be why it has a reputation of being deep and scary. Yet the down to earth stuff, what foods each culture favours, how Nords use honey in smithing, what songs or humour each race is known for... all these things are lore as much as the deep stuff is. I for one would love that character-driven lore more prominently displayed here.

  5. 

  6. See, this is my area of weakness. I like to take a source and subvert it, reinterpret it and breathe it back out. Academia is not my forte and that is why I have never tackled a project like that. I once tried to do something like that with the Dragon language but got carried away by the evocative inscriptions and wondering just how pretty Princess Ysra was 

• Justiciar Thorien

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Well, I hope people will forgive me my intolerance. After all it hasn't been long since I was a first-grader too and in many ways I still am. Just like Karver said, people shouldn't be afraid of reading. And I'd add that they also shouldn't be too lazy to read.

  1. No, absolutely not! No background prologues, that would kill all the roleplaying interest. The cool thing in TES is that you can make any backstory to your character so he csn be anyone. But you should know some lore to figure out why you character joins that or this fction, or what the history of his people is, what gods each race follows, etc. You know, so there won't be dudes whose parents were killed by Daedra worshipping Thalmor and vegan Bosmer)))) Well, you definitely can have a vegan Bosmer, but not because you think that's the way all Bosmer are)

  2. We know those stories where you can't tell where the lore nds and the author's fantasy begins, and they are awesome. But if you want to make a lore-freindly story, filling gaps in the lore is not always fun. Especially when the next game proves your interpretation incorrect. The only thing that can help is digging even further and looking at the existing lore to close those gaps as logically as possible.

  3. You learn to read between the lines. Not only books are sources of lore. You can gather info from different source. If an author of the book seems unreliable or biased, look at the overall picture and you'll get closer to the truth. The question is whether your character is a person inclined to believe unreliable scholars or to figure out the truth for himself? Or maybe he is a fan of the Nord science and doesn't care what is true as long as the story is funny?)))

  Well, I hope people will forgive me my intolerance. After all it hasn't been long since I was a first-grader too and in many ways I still am. Just like Karver said, people shouldn't be afraid of reading. And I'd add that they also shouldn't be too lazy to read.

  1. No, absolutely not! No background prologues, that would kill all the roleplaying interest. The cool thing in TES is that you can make any backstory to your character so he csn be anyone. But you should know some lore to figure out why you character joins that or this fction, or what the history of his people is, what gods each race follows, etc. You know, so there won't be dudes whose parents were killed by Daedra worshipping Thalmor and vegan Bosmer)))) Well, you definitely can have a vegan Bosmer, but not because you think that's the way all Bosmer are)

  2. We know those stories where you can't tell where the lore nds and the author's fantasy begins, and they are awesome. But if you want to make a lore-freindly story, filling gaps in the lore is not always fun. Especially when the next game proves your interpretation incorrect. The only thing that can help is digging even further and looking at the existing lore to close those gaps as logically as possible.

  3. You learn to read between the lines. Not only books are sources of lore. You can gather info from different source. If an author of the book seems unreliable or biased, look at the overall picture and you'll get closer to the truth. The question is whether your character is a person inclined to believe unreliable scholars or to figure out the truth for himself? Or maybe he is a fan of the Nord science and doesn't care what is true as long as the story is funny?)))

• Veloth the Prophet

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  What is lore? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me... no more!

  What is lore? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me... no more!

• Chris

  

  Member
   

  May 24, 2016

  Lore is love, Lore is Life

  Lore is love, Lore is Life