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Let's talk about GOTS8 Episode Five

    • 747 posts
    May 12, 2019 7:39 PM EDT

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    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Only one to go. I had hoped I would be more excited, but I'm feeling like I was during the finale (or was it a mid-season finale) of season 7 or 8 (I think) of The Walking Dead: kind of disconnected. I stopped watching TWD, but since GOT only has two episodes to go, I'm keeping up with it. At least the visuals, the acting and the music will be great.

    What did you think of it?

    Did you enjoy it?

    What was the most interesting thing to you?

    What are your predictions for the final episode?

    Talk about anything you want. But remember, NO LEAKS.

    • 1437 posts
    May 12, 2019 10:51 PM EDT
    I personally enjoyed it. I think Jenny's Song from a few episodes back may foreshadow Jon like his ancestor, giving up the throne to Dany
    • 1437 posts
    May 12, 2019 10:53 PM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    I also think her being betrayed makes sense, as it was predicted, IMS serves, she would be suffer three betrayals
    • 197 posts
    May 13, 2019 1:37 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Aaaagh, seriously. I’m not looking forward to this episode. So much insanity, and I mean the whole doing the same thing and expecting something different. 

     

    I have no idea what’s going through Jaime’s head right now. His motivation, I mean. 

     

    I continue to be on Team Tyrion. He’s just the best. He underestimates and overestimates everyone, but he’s just the best. 

     

    I hope Hot Topic pirate dies this epi. Please. 

     

    Jaime is indeed the stupidest Lannister. He took his sweet-ass time if they’re supposed to attack at daybreak. Day has broke already. Wtf. And I will understand if he wants to die with his sister. She’s evil incarnate and he has to know it, and feel some responsibility. But if he really wants to sneak her away, I’m done with him. 

     

    Dammit, Drogon, or whichever dragon is still alive. You missed. 

     

    Wow. The dragon did that pretty discreetly. Flying over the gates with no sound whatsoever. Good job. That dragon is fucking shit up. Imagine if they had two. Like, if the other dragon could have seen boats from up in the sky. 

     

    Cersei is delusional, man, unless she has some defense left in surprise. That dragon could destroy the keep in one pass, given what he’s done to the gates and allll the walls. And her men don’t look interested at all in fighting. And no, they weren’t. That was quick. Let’s see if Dany can fuck it up, now. 

     

    The dragon might not be vulnerable to arrows, but she is. She shouldn’t be sitting there. Move. Moooove. I don’t know if that expression means she’s relieved or bloodthirsty. I’m going with the latter. Aaaaaand, she’s done. Nope. There’s no way Jon will be ok with this, not even though he said so. No way. He’s better than that. 

     

    I get what Grey Worm is feeling right now, but it’s still not ok. And Dany could be killing her own people right now and have no idea. At this point she’s gotta go. Sorry, Furrion. :(

     

    Oh fuck. Goth pirate. Why. He is a damn joke. I’m sure he was different in the books, i honestly don’t remember because it’s been so long, but I would literally like to turn him inside out and set him on fire right now. It’s like watching a turd that’s somehow come to life try to walk and talk. 

     

    Did you guys see the green fire? Leftover wildfire? Why did Cersei not use that??

     

    What the hell is Euron now, a damned Uruk-hai, grabbing that sword and growling? He wishes he could be that cool. 

     

    Is Cleganebowl coming now or next epi? They really needed to do more with Arya and the HOund earlier. That is a meaningful end to a meaningful relationship. Although I don’t think for a second Arya would give up that easy. 

     

    Yay! That was a nice end for Qyburn. 

     

    You know, whatever happens in Cleganebowl, I don’t think HOund will be happy if he’s alive. I think they’ll both die. Lots of parallels with Cersei and Jaime, too. They made each other, and they need to die together. It’s one of the few things the show has done right this season. “It doesn’t matter.” That’s right, it doesn’t. Does Cersei really not understand yet? She has to. 

     

    Now. The mountain might actually be a Uruk-Hai. 

     

    Seriously, Danerys cannot be allowed to rule after this. This is why I really wish Bran had spoken up, or someone with courage had spoken up and said something when Dany was going on about her father and injustice. Her father deserved what he got, and so will she. At least if SOMEONE had had the courage to speak up, she might have  had this thought in the back of her mind and it might have stayed her madness. Maybe. At least a chance, right? Damn, all those people. 

     

    I love the thing with Arya’s struggle mirroring the Hound’s. Great work. And I really like the way they’re watching everyone run through the streets, and using Arya for the camera to follow. It reminds me a bit of the episode of Band of Brothers where they follow the medic around, and see all the carnage he sees. And he has this moment where he connects with the nurse and then goes back into the wrecked city to find her. It’s well done. 

     

    It’s just a lot, though. Dany lived through a lot without giving into madness. And no, she didn’t make great decisions, I’m not saying she went from super smart and logical cool-headed leader to mad tyrant, but really, honestly, I don’t think this is who she is. I think the writers didn’t do a good job with her. Then again, maybe the realization that she’s done all this work and no one wants her just flipped her over the edge. I don’t know, I’ve never been in her shoes. I never will be, so I guess I can’t really imagine. 

     

    I can’t believe Arya is still alive. And Jaime. And the hell with Cersei. Is anyone expecting us to have sympathy for her after all this? After everything? After all this, I”m glad they’e both gone. 

     

    And if Bran fucking knew this was coming and didn’t warn anyone, then fuck him too. He can just sit in that forest and rot. 

     

    I’m a bit emotional after this episode, if you couldn’t already tell. This thing with Arya and the horse isn’t helping either. It’s irritating. 

     

    I’m not sure what to expect next. If it doesn’t include Jon killing Danerys, though, and Bran finally doing something, I’m not interested. I get what the writers are saying, that Dany felt betrayed, and that she’d needed her friends and advisers and it just pushed her over the edge, but no. No no no. That sort of thing, I mean, if she’d left, if she’d abandoned the cause, I would get that. Killing all those people isn’t a justifiable reaction. It’s just not. It’s not even collateral damage, which I expected. I expected deaths in the red keep. I expected her to do what she had to do to get to Cersei, but at that point, I don’t think she cared about getting to Cersei. She just wanted to cause death. And that’s not justifiable or excusable, or really, understandable. This isn’t just madness, it’s vicious. D

    • 197 posts
    May 13, 2019 2:06 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    More griping. I just don’t like this. I don’t like having to want the death of someone I’ve pulled for for several seasons of the show. And yeah, when Danerys was overseas, I pulled for her. I thought the whole “savior of the world” thing was heavy handed, but I thought she was someone who could grow into who she wanted to be. But they changed who she wanted to be, just far far too much. It’s not satisfying, and even though I saw it coming, it’s just not satisfying. I know they wnat to defy our expectations with all this, but sometimes the best stories end with things we’ve expected, things we’ve predicted the whole way through. It’s they way they tell the story, the characters’ relationships with each other that make it great. But this? Hell, they really dropped the ball here in the name of melodrama. Ugh. 

    • 197 posts
    May 13, 2019 2:27 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    I mean, wasn’t danerys really shaped by her hatred of being a piece of property, someone with no freedoms, no destiny but being a pawn in her brother’s game? Shaped by the rtreatment of her brother and khal drogo, even. Not being able to stand slavery and just pure, unadulterated cruelty. I think at some point she even said she didn’t want to be like her father or brother, didn’t she? Am i remembering this wrong? I mean, Yes, she didn’t mind killing her enemies, but that’s not what this was. This was basically a genocide, an annihilation, even, from someone who we started liking for her underdog nature. Her never-give-up nature. Her almost mystical power. Her ability to find love in the face of evil - and defend it. they just didn’t lay the groundwork here for her complete loss of control. Even with missandei and Jorah and Varys. It might have made their storytelling easier - i mean, it’s easier to choose jon for the throne (if they even do that, which i don’t think they will) if their other candidate is completely unacceptable. But it’s a cheat, i think. It could have been satisfying, but it’s not. And that - not really the unrealistic burning of the scorpions or everyone suddenly meeting uptogether in strange places, or all the coincidences that seem to pay off at the last minute - is what i think the shame of this series really is. They wanted punch and fire and melodrama and twists and unpredictability, and they paid for it. 

     

     

    • 67 posts
    May 13, 2019 3:47 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    I just want to say that what happened in the show, not ok, And it sucks because I could see this coming from a mile away with all thier not so subtle crappy foreshadowing over last 2 episodes.. I like Daenerys and this just wasn't her.  This is the we're to lazy to write a satisfying end to a character that has become far to complex, so lets just make her go crazy and blow shit up, because everybody loves it when theres shit blowing up on tv Daenerys. Thats what that was. SMH. I think the show writers have really done a good job at ruining Dany as a character. She heard all the tales about her father and Targaryen madness and she didn't want to become that. She's fallen far from grace. Breaker of Chains to Incinerator of the innocent. FFS it's just so crap seeing them do this, I mean if they knew this was how they wanted to end her character a little more build up would have done wonders, instead we got her doing a 180 personality shift in like 2 or 3 episodes if even that. That's just a really lazy and weak way to end her character. Just as bad as they did for the NK. The greatest villian in GOT isn't Cersie, the Night King or Dany it's the crappy writting that has befallen the last season and a half..

    I mean killing the soldiers on the battlements fine, Killing the Iron fleet that's great, KIlling the Golden Company meh (More like the charcol company they are so much more bad ass in the books and deserved better than that 10 second send off!), When the Lanister soldiers yielded and the bells were ringing she had won, there was no need for anymore death. She truly is the Queen of Ashes now. Going ham and killing all those civies Definantly not ok.

    Maybe if Jon had got with Dany she wouldn't have burnt everthing down. But they can never give us nice things can they :(

    Cleganebowl was ok, I geuss the Hound finally got his revenge. But damn what the hell did Quybrn do to the Mountain. Ironic that he was killed by the Mountain, a Frankenstein easter egg maybe?

    Jamie, why!!! Man your character arc went almost all the way back to square one man. That final scene between Tyrrion and Jamie was just... damn those feels. Yay that Jamie killed the Jack Sparrow wannabe but how the hell did he make it all the way to Red keep after being stabbed not just a little bit but fully to the hilt stabbed 2 or more times, that's just silly. And yay Cersie died was kinda hoping for a public execution of her but I geuss that went out the window when Dany went Apocalyspe Now on the KL. At least Jamie ended up dying in the arms of women he loved, like he wanted.

    Arya's white horse was so cringey, like where did it even come from man. But it could be possibly a call back to this from ADWD maybe? Could be a stretch though. Quaithe: The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flamelion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal. Or maybe it's call out to the Revelations part of the bible with Death riding a Pale Horse or somthing. idk

    Also a quote Tyrrion made to Cersie in ACOK might have gotten pay off as well bet he wasn't thinking of this when he said that though.“I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid.”

    My predictions for the final episode.

    Either Jon or Arya will kill Dany. I think Arya is a Red herring and that it will be Jon  in the end, but then again I thought that about the NK. Either way shes dead. Just get it over and done with so we can pretend that this season never happend and get a proper resoloution from the books.

    EIther 1. Danny takes the throne and is killed by Jon or Arya. or 2. Dany is killed before she gets to take the throne. (Also Drogon's gotta go as well can't have anything we want to stick around, so yep bye bye Drogon. And Greyworms gone too. Also she is likely going to execute Tyrion for letting Jamie go free.

    As far as the throne/ending goes

    1. There will be no more throne.

    2. Sansa will end up on the throne (Jon will almost certainly refuse it. Especially if he kills Danny. If that happens he can walk his ass up beyond the wall and chill with Tormund and Ghost for the rest of his days making up for the fact he never petted Ghost good bye lol).

    3. Jon will take the throne and brood himself to an early grave.

    4. Bran wakes up from his coma in season 1 and we find out it was all just a dream. Expectations Subverted!!! (Seriously though wtf is Bran up to. That seen of Dogons shadow flying over the building was in one his visions in season 5. Why didn't he tell anyone. I don;t teust Bran I feel like he's got some sort of evil hidden agenda waiting up his sleeve (atleast in the books), I might be giving the show too much credit.

    All in all entertaining but thouroughly disapointinp episode. Such a shame to see the characters stories being tied up so poorly :(


    This post was edited by Furrion 17 at May 13, 2019 5:38 AM EDT
    • 67 posts
    May 13, 2019 4:17 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Also what happened to the heatseeking capabilities of the Scorpions/Balista's from last episode. They managed to get a shit ton of shots into Rhaegal in quick sucession and kill him. Now they barely fired off a few shots before they were incinerated. Seems like they just needed Rhaegal to die to make the odds seem more in Cersie's favor. But did that even matter after how easily Dany burned KL to the ground? She might as well have had all three of her dragons such was the resistance she faced. White walkers defeated one episode, Cersie defeated one episode. Night king killed a dragon (didn't matter cause he got one shotted by a teleporting Arya). Cersie and Eurons fleet turned Rhaegal into a hedgehog last episode (Didn't matter because apparently all the top balista shooters had taken a day off work when Dany started burning the place down). Like did they want to make it that easy for her, because it really seems like these balistas were and ice spears were made out be super great Dragon Killing weapons, but they failed when it mattered most, or more to say the accuracy behind them was out. If they can shoot a dragon out of the sky they should be able to do it again. the only reason they didn't is because Dany has to be killed by somone else (Jon or Arya).


    This post was edited by Furrion 17 at May 13, 2019 4:18 AM EDT
    • 67 posts
    May 13, 2019 4:53 AM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...
    This is a good video, that basically sums up how I feel about this episode.

    https://youtu.be/BuFmzgK5nD0


    • 67 posts
    May 13, 2019 5:05 AM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Oh and Cersei has a really bad Queens guard lol. The Hound killed them all in like 10 seconds, except for Zombie Mountain. RIP the Hound.

    And what happend to Yara grey Joys fleet and the Dornish forces they were talking about at thier war council last episode? Did they just drop off the face of the world?


    This post was edited by Furrion 17 at May 13, 2019 5:15 AM EDT
    • 1437 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:07 PM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    As one comment on a video pointed out, this would make some more sense if they had included more of Danny's visions from the House of the Undying. One of which foreshadowed her succumbing to the old Targeryen madness (which Baelor and his brother Aemon are some of the few to have kept their heads), and becoming the Queen of Ashes.

    Also as Davis pointed out, bells never meant surrender. And Cleganebowl!
    • 197 posts
    May 13, 2019 12:22 PM EDT
    No spoilers in this reply, just that this season has spurred me to re-read the books. At least the first few. It’s been almost 20 years since I read the first book, and I want to see if I’m remembering things right.
    • 747 posts
    May 13, 2019 8:09 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    That's the thing, Furion. This is and always has been Daenerys character arch.

    Granted, the execution on the show was bad, but I'm certain the end result is the same of the books: Daenerys goes "mad", and destroys the city. This reeks of something planned by GRRM. The difference is that the books have been showing consequences to her actions (Astapor, Yunkai) and being a little less subtle on the whole Daenerys-isn't-that-great trend. Besides, this has been discussed and brought up as a possibility by fans even before A Dance With Dragons, which is the first book where we get a real outsider perspective to Daenerys' world, in the person of Quentyn Martell.

    Not only that, but there are two instances on the show itself where we get to see scenes of this episode: the first dates back to the House of the Undying in Season 2, the second dates back to a vision Bran had back in Season 4, of Drogon flying over King's Landing and the Throne's Room destroyed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gh0-4hOzyw) what does this mean? It means the showrunners knew at least since Season 2 about Daenerys' destiny and, what's more, the Season 4 episode with Bran's vision was written for television by George R R Martin himself. This is GRRM's plan for the character, but of course he executes his vision much better and over an extended period of time (at the end of A Dance with Dragons, Dany claims she has chosen "Fire and Blood". This is her entire arch in ADWD: will I be the Targaryen conqueror, or will I be benevolent? She chooses the former at the end of the book. And there are still two more books to go!).

    So yes, the show should have kickstarted this a lot sooner, at least in Season 5, but... It feels good to be vindicated. Can't believe how many times I got called a "Dany hater" simply for defending that Dany would be, by the end of the series, a "villain". A tragic one, but a villain nonetheless. There are some good answers here (https://www.quora.com/Does-Games-of-Throne-prepare-us-for-Daenerys-Targaryen-becoming-crazy-It-feels-as-if-it-is-unearned-and-the-notion-hasn-t-been-developed-in-great-detail-throughtout-the-series), including one by Kelsey L. Hayes, who, together with Susan Bertolino (also on Quora) convinced me that Dany was... problematic, to say the least (I had already been bothered by the way she handled Slaver's Bay in the books, but these two ladies' answers really gave me a better understanding of the character).

    Also, this is the only youtube channel on GOT I follow. It's really good:

    • 747 posts
    May 13, 2019 8:10 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Something funny I read somewhere:

    Can you imagine every parent who named their child Khaleesi/Daenerys? Ha!

    • 747 posts
    May 13, 2019 8:37 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Another great analysis: https://www.quora.com/q/all-things-asoiafgot/Did-Daenerys-continue-to-burn-Kings-Landing-because-she-was-mentally-unstable-or-did-she-make-a-very-deliberate-decisio?__filter__=&__nsrc__=2&__snid3__=4431093776

    Two things I hated: They ruined Jaime. His "I never cared for innocents" line is extremely stupid. Jaime killed the Mad King because he cared for the innocents. Not only that, but it feels really... anticlimatic? That he goes running back to Cersei. In the books, he burns a letter from Cersei where she is asking him to come back to King's Landing to help her, because she is about to be submitted to a trial by combat by the High Septon. This happens in A Feast for Crows, so about season 5: in the show, Jaime only left Cersei in season 7.

    Euron. His fight against Jaime was completely unnecessary and idiotic, he should have died with his fleet.

    • 67 posts
    May 14, 2019 3:12 AM EDT

    Mr. Edd said:

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    That's the thing, Furion. This is and always has been Daenerys character arch.

    Granted, the execution on the show was bad, but I'm certain the end result is the same of the books: Daenerys goes "mad", and destroys the city. This reeks of something planned by GRRM. The difference is that the books have been showing consequences to her actions (Astapor, Yunkai) and being a little less subtle on the whole Daenerys-isn't-that-great trend. Besides, this has been discussed and brought up as a possibility by fans even before A Dance With Dragons, which is the first book where we get a real outsider perspective to Daenerys' world, in the person of Quentyn Martell.

    Not only that, but there are two instances on the show itself where we get to see scenes of this episode: the first dates back to the House of the Undying in Season 2, the second dates back to a vision Bran had back in Season 4, of Drogon flying over King's Landing and the Throne's Room destroyed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gh0-4hOzyw) what does this mean? It means the showrunners knew at least since Season 2 about Daenerys' destiny and, what's more, the Season 4 episode with Bran's vision was written for television by George R R Martin himself. This is GRRM's plan for the character, but of course he executes his vision much better and over an extended period of time (at the end of A Dance with Dragons, Dany claims she has chosen "Fire and Blood". This is her entire arch in ADWD: will I be the Targaryen conqueror, or will I be benevolent? She chooses the former at the end of the book. And there are still two more books to go!).

    So yes, the show should have kickstarted this a lot sooner, at least in Season 5, but... It feels good to be vindicated. Can't believe how many times I got called a "Dany hater" simply for defending that Dany would be, by the end of the series, a "villain". A tragic one, but a villain nonetheless. There are some good answers here (https://www.quora.com/Does-Games-of-Throne-prepare-us-for-Daenerys-Targaryen-becoming-crazy-It-feels-as-if-it-is-unearned-and-the-notion-hasn-t-been-developed-in-great-detail-throughtout-the-series), including one by Kelsey L. Hayes, who, together with Susan Bertolino (also on Quora) convinced me that Dany was... problematic, to say the least (I had already been bothered by the way she handled Slaver's Bay in the books, but these two ladies' answers really gave me a better understanding of the character).

     

    I'll admit my opinion of Dany is likely biased. I really enjoyed reading the Targaryen histories in Fire & Blood and The World of Ice and Fire. For all the ups and downs of thier family during thier reign I believed the throne should stay with thier house (atleast until the last episode anyway). I just loved reading about them and all thier acomplishments and misdeeds, from great leaders like Aegon the 1st and his sisters and Jaehaerys the Concilitor and Good Queen Alysanne. To the cruel and mad like Maegor The Cruel and Aerion Brightflame. And the outright ecentric like Baelor the Blessed. They have one of the most interesting histories in the series. The part that is really sad is all the legacys these characters left behind (save for what's written about them and the Kings Road), was oblittereated by Dany in a bizare fit of madness. It took almost all of her ancestors who exibited signs of madness and even her father years to go full crazy. The Mad King started out as a good or at least not a bad ruler. His madness started to take root after Rhaella had some still births and some of thier children died (They had 8 children in total with 5 of them dying before or shortly after birth iirc). It wasn't until Aerys was kidnapped and held hostage at Duskendale that he really went proper mad, and even after that it was years before he had decided to try and blow KL up with wildfire. Kings landing survied Maegor the Cruels Reign,The dance of dragons,and the Mad King only to be destroyed by Dany in moment of what? Rage? Madness? Thats been foreshadowed in what 2 maybe 3 episodes? Theres no real presedent set for any of Targaryens just all of a sudden just flipping out on the scale that she did. And if they had it would have taken YEARS. Maegor the Cruel is probably the exception,he was just born bad (Visenya probably doing some crazy alchemy/sorcerry stuff).

    You are right the show hasn't portayed Dany the same as she is in the books and perhaps thats another bias I have since my first intepretation is of the character we see on the show. She is much more grey in the books which leaves most of what she does open to interpretation. But still she locked her Dragons in Meereen's pyramid because they (maybe) killed one child. So we go from her freeing slaves and locking her dragons up to avoid hurting innocents. To her burning a city to ashes with innocent civillians everywhere after the Lannister army had clearly ceded to her. She wasn't even intrested in Cersie, she was just high on the flames and killing everyone and everything if the Northern army hadn't retreated they would have probably been a casualty too.  It just seems like a MASSIVE jump. Maybe the books will foreshadow her descent better the show has (I can only hope). I'm also only about a third of the way through ADWD, though have gotten the broad strokes of it from youtube over the years, (about 300 pages in) so maybe once I've finished I'll catch somthing I've maybe been missing about her character. And you know the way she dealed with slavers bay was maybe not the best or maybe it was. You can't expect a society that has relied on slavery for hundreds maybe thousands of years to change overnight (That was never going to go down well), but then isn't slavery in of it self a cruel and heinous act. It all depends, from whose perspective you look at that through and how much value put on one human life vs another. When freed the fighters wanted to continue to fight because they valued the perks that came with being an accopmlished fighter to that of a free person with nothing. Perhaps the compromise that Dany could have sort instead of abolishing slavery, was to give The Wise Masters and Slaves the option of having/being indetured servents or voluntery slaves as long as thier needs were met and they were looked after. Because the way it was the vast majority were not.

    I know that the books however they frame Dany's character will be far more well thought out and recieved than what we got on the show. I mean what a vision that showed a dragon flying over buildings isn't alot to go on when you think about it. it could just be a dragon flying over a building (Though almost all of Brans visions have proven to be ominous). I mean if Bran is the all seeing guy he is, why didn't he let anyone know about that? The more I think of it, the more I think Bran has some wierd master plan for the end of show cooked up. Like what if he ends up on the throne wouldn't that be a super wierd way to end it? And the house of the undying vision I'll give you that.

    I just think the way they have finshed Danys character was just really unsatisfying even if this was where she was meant to end up. It'd be like after watching Jon get all the way to where he did at the start of this season and then in the last 2 episodes turn into a crazed monster with little to no explanation other than he's a Targaryen (Which he is). Would that make it any better what they did with Dany? I mean everyones saying she went mad last season when she burned the Tarlys. But that was a war. She gave them option, Bend the knee, The wall or Die. Aegon the conqueror did the same. Jons executed people as well does that make him just as mad? So far as I can tell her madness (in the show) only showed 2 episodes ago and that was more grief than batshit crazy i'm going to burn everything down madness.  And I know dany wanted to break the wheel but damn she broke the entire car. It was hard seeing her be the one to destroy KL after all it was her family who built it.

    • 1437 posts
    May 14, 2019 11:38 AM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    Then again, it could, in part, be a way to purify KL of her family's, often fucked up, legacy. Cause like, only a handful of Targs weren't complete assholes
    • 1437 posts
    May 14, 2019 8:38 PM EDT
    https://youtu.be/f3ziFY6n5KE So, Night King's actor believes that the NK wants revenge for being made the NK, and the vid also discussed other such topics relating to the NK
    • 1437 posts
    May 15, 2019 11:02 AM EDT
    https://youtu.be/5d6L3lg7ZRU Speaking of book Dany, this video covers Dany as she appears in the books, whether she is what some would call a bad person, who is Dany, etc
    • 197 posts
    May 15, 2019 3:05 PM EDT
    No spoilers here, just an update on my refresh of the books. I just finished the chapter where Sansa experiences the Hand’s tourney and the Hound walks her home. I swear, you guys, he could have written a riveting story based on their relationship alone. And the insight into Sansa there, when she’s trying to convince herself that she’d feel something for a fallen knight if she knew him well, damn, that was beautifully done. Aside from the prologue where the wights are introduced, that’s probably my favorite chapter so far.
    • 747 posts
    May 15, 2019 5:22 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @Furrion Don't get me wrong, I enjoy their history too. But I don't equate enjoying them from a historical perspective to enjoying them as a family or royal dynasty. For every Jaeharys and Alysanne there is an Aerys II, a Daenerys or an Aegon IV.

    The part that is really sad is all the legacys these characters left behind (save for what's written about them and the Kings Road), was oblittereated by Dany in a bizare fit of madness.

    But that's amazing. It's their ancient Valyrian custums of incest coming back to bite them in the ass, time and again, until it reaches a point where it really bites them in the ass (Aerys II and Daenerys). And as the video I linked argued for, she's not mad crazy ike her father, she's a different kind of mad: mad angry.

    It took almost all of her ancestors who exibited signs of madness and even her father years to go full crazy.

    But that's the thing, her self-righetous rage has always been there, it just so happened that up until now most of her enemies were cartoon villains (slaver, rapist, warlock). What happens when she's fighting against someone that isn't a cartoon villain? What happens is that Daenerys doesn't change fundamentally, it's our perspective that does. And in a Dance with Dragons, we see that fundamentally she isn't changing at all, but the book is all about her accepting to take the next step, that is, it's a gradual change on a scale she was already in on the first place.

    I won't spoil the book for  you, but the burned child you mention is brought up again in one of her chapters, and it's in that chapter where you realize that she is changing.

    And even in her treatment with the slavers there are problems. She just executed 163 people, some who were just 13 years old, without trial. She executed simply because they were born to a social class, she doesn't know if they were all in favour of crucifying those children, she doesn't bother to find out which ones of them were against the decision at all. Generalizing and killing people just because they belong to a group of people is never a good idea, and it's morally repugnant. At one point, it was the kind of thing that nazis used to justify their segregation and eventual murder of jews: at the beginning, they were like "oh, they're so successful, there must be something wrong with them, right? Right. Since they all belong to group A, then everyone that belongs to group A must be equally "wrong". So let's punish them all for being born to group A". Same thing with communists in the USSR, and most famously there is the example of them rounding up the Romanovs, including the innocent children, and gunning them down.

    Thats been foreshadowed in what 2 maybe 3 episodes? Theres no real presedent set for any of Targaryens just all of a sudden just flipping out on the scale that she did. And if they had it would have taken YEARS. Maegor the Cruel is probably the exception,he was just born bad (Visenya probably doing some crazy alchemy/sorcerry stuff).

    There are multiple precedents of mental instabillities in the family. Aegon IV legitimized his bastard son on his deathbed just to stir the pot, and out of that there were millions of death as a result of the five Blackfyre Rebellions, and the upcoming fake Aegon's invasion of Westeros in the books with the Golden Company (which was also founded by a Blackfyre). Aegon the Conqueror unleashed what Martin has called weapons of mass destruction upon Westeros, being responsible for the infamous "Field of Fire" (Daenerys did a second Field of Fire last season, against the Tarlys/Lannister army).

    You can also argue that there was something wrong with her reaction to the death of Viserys: https://qr.ae/TWNyFu

    So we go from her freeing slaves

    And you know the way she dealed with slavers bay was maybe not the best or maybe it was. You can't expect a society that has relied on slavery for hundreds maybe thousands of years to change overnight (That was never going to go down well), but then isn't slavery in of it self a cruel and heinous act. It all depends, from whose perspective you look at that through and how much value put on one human life vs another. When freed the fighters wanted to continue to fight because they valued the perks that came with being an accopmlished fighter to that of a free person with nothing. Perhaps the compromise that Dany could have sort instead of abolishing slavery, was to give The Wise Masters and Slaves the option of having/being indetured servents or voluntery slaves as long as thier needs were met and they were looked after. Because the way it was the vast majority were not.

    You're right, she freed the slaves and... what? What did she do to help them? Chaos unleashed in the cities she passed, because she didn't bother or couldn't figure out what to do on the day after. In Meereen, she even started to allow "light slavery" because she didn't know what to do, some slaves were starving on the cities because they had no master to feed them anymore and weren't able to get a paying job. "Breaking the wheel" sounds beautiful in theory sometimes, but it's not enough to break the wheel. What will you do with the pieces? What if, after breaking the wheel, what comes after is worse than what was before?

     

    I mean what a vision that showed a dragon flying over buildings isn't alot to go on when you think about it. it could just be a dragon flying over a building

    Not only a vision that showed a dragon flying over King's Landing, but it showed the Red Keep destroyed and covered in ashes. The episode was also written by GRRM, so they knew since then what was going to happen, they just weren't capable of executing it that well.

    I mean if Bran is the all seeing guy he is, why didn't he let anyone know about that?

    The Three Eyed Raven/Bran doesn't necessarily see the future. The older Three Eyed Raven didn't know Bran would touch the Night's King and therefore allow him to invade the cave. Not only that, but it's a pretty big thing in ASOIAF that you can't change the past... or the future, I think. You can interfere with it, but that's it: Hodor was always going to be Hodor. Ned would always turn his back when climbing the Tower of the Joy (Bran visited this same moment two times: on the first, Bran called for his father and Ned turned. On the second, Bran didn't call for his father and Ned turned all the same). Besides, this "streak" of rage or madness was always in Daenerys, we have no one to blame but herself.

    I mean everyones saying she went mad last season when she burned the Tarlys. But that was a war. She gave them option, Bend the knee, The wall or Die. Aegon the conqueror did the same. Jons executed people as well does that make him just as mad? So far as I can tell her madness (in the show) only showed 2 episodes ago and that was more grief than batshit crazy i'm going to burn everything down madness.

    It's not something like you "go mad" and that's it. As I said, that streak was always there, that self-righteous rage was always problematic and she was always a little too out there (her justification for the death of Viserys was "He wasn't a real dragon. Dragons don't burn" or something like that). As for the Tarlys, she executed prisoners and, what's worse, by fire. The "option" she gave (send them to the wall) was conditioned on them bending the knee, so the only "option" she gave was for them to "submit" to her and be punished anyway, so she could feed her ego.

    Jon executed people who directly betrayed him and were under his direct and lawful command as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and he hanged/beheaded. He executed people who broke the law and his trust, not war prisoners.


    This post was edited by Mr. Edd at May 15, 2019 5:24 PM EDT
    • 1437 posts
    May 15, 2019 6:58 PM EDT
    Agreed, also this video covers how much MORE Euron could have been in the show https://youtu.be/QFe3MidfAA4
    • 747 posts
    May 16, 2019 3:06 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

    @Chris

    They merged book Euron and book Victarion, leaving out the best of each (although I was quite happy with how they portrayed Euron on the second episode of Season 7, during his attack on the Iron Fleet/Dornish). The soundtrack helped a lot. It captured some of book Euron's personality and raw power.

    @Everyone

    The more I think about it, the more I realize there is almost no excuse for Daenerys, during her entire life. Perhaps only on her first few chapters, where she's only an innocent girl. And Daenerys Targaryen might be GRRM's greatest achievement: it says something about ourselves and about human nature and history, how we can be fooled into "rooting" for a populist and violent tyrant just because our perspectives are manipulated and because of the unreliable narrator. Martin plays a lot with it, but what is the ultimate unreliable narrator if not the point of view of the person about which the story is about? This is what makes ASOIAF so good: at the beginning, we think all Lannisters are bad. Then we get our first Tyrion chapters. Then we follow him through and expect him to be always good, but... was he? And what about when starts thinking about raping and killing Cersei? And what about Jaime, who started out as the Kingslayer, the classic fantasy, perfect prince-villain, only to end up as a misunderstood and confused hero?

    Daenerys may be GRRM's greatest character, as much as she is not my favorite, she might be the one to actually incite and draw more love, hate and controversy amongst the readers because of her unreliability as a narrator. Of course most of us will be cheering for her, all of her chapters are inside her head, we see the world through her eyes, and her eyes alone. Daenerys had the narrative advantage to be a lone POV character in an isolated part of the world. It isn't until A Dance with Dragon that we get our first chapters that tell her story from another point of view (Barristan Selmy's and Quentyn Martell's). Even then, if we go back, we can easily see how she was always problematic to say the least.

    Anyway, it's so intriguing. I just hope Martin gets to finish his books soon, I can't wait for The Winds of Winter, and to think he hasn't even started writing A Dream of Spring... Damn.

    • 197 posts
    May 16, 2019 5:06 PM EDT

    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...

     

    Honestly? I’ve finished my refresh of book one and I’m no longer intrigued to read the rest. It’s difficult to explain where my dissatisfaction lies, but I think it’s in the teasing. It’s sort of like what they did with the show Lost, if any of you are old enough to remember watching Lost. The first couple of seasons were magic. They set up something mystical and mysterious and instead of weaving that magic through the plot, they continued to cut the threads and clumsily start new ones, just ignoring what they’d done before until they were left with something so absurd and broken it was impossible to suspend disbelief. We were constantly asked to wrap our heads around new and different mysteries without context, without relationship. 

    This is sort of, kind of how I feel about ISOIAF now. And if the books were shorter, i could see re-reading them and discovering new things, but honestly, there’s just not enough time in the day for it. 

    Re Danerys: she was 13 when the story started, and her life was not what she expected a normal life to be. She dreamed of a childhood in a home with people who cared for her, with a lemon tree outside her bedroom and a red, welcoming door. And it went on like this until she got those dragon eggs, and started having dreams of dragons. Only then did her idea of home become the Iron Throne and not that peaceful red door. But aside from the mystical aspect of the dragon eggs, there’s no real reason for it. No growing into the ambition that had never been hers - she didn’t want it. She didn’t want power, she literally wanted love and peace and stability. From my reader’s standpoint, it felt -to the end of book one - that her desire for that red door, for home warred with whatever those dragon eggs woke inside her, and at the end of book one, the fire and blood had won. But the struggle wasn’t shown enough To make it seem real. 

    And...I know most of you will disagree with me, but I feel like it’s a tease. Mystery, mysticism, and then bam, it’s all gone. I felt the same way about the direwolves, how their story was written. It felt like a tease. And I‘m not talking about happy endings. I agree that this story doesn’t get a happy ending. But how all this was written just isn’t satisfying. To me. It feels broken, like he’d planned to write things another way, but at the end of book one changed his mind. I get that. As someone who writes, I get it. And at that point, you just CAN’T rewrite. But it just doesn’t feel right. To me. And this isn’t to say the books aren’t good - who am I to say such a thing? I’m nobody. But they’re not the story I wanted to read - I was drawn in by the magic and the myth, not the politics and war and allegory, which seemed to overshadow the rest of the books. And I’m finished with trying to force things to fit my expectations. Especially when they’re not my things to begin with! 

    I do disagree with you, @Mr. Edd, though. I don’t think her actions seemed ok while she was overseas because her enemies were some sort of over the top cartoonish villains. I don’t have a problem with some of her actions, others I definitely do. But, even these were almost acceptable because - in this, I DO agree with you - she kept trying to convince herself of her own motives, while her actions were quite different. Unreliable narrator, like you said. And this is human nature - the ultimate unreliable narrator. There’s a show on the air, and I won’t say what it is because this would be considered a huge spoiler if I did, but there’s a pivotal moment where one of the characters is describing human nature and how difficult it is to understand. It’s DIFFICULT to understand people because - and this is the truest thing i’ve Ever heard - people don’t understand themselves. We truly don’t know what our motivations are, for the most part. We claim that they’re one thing, and we’re not lying to ourselves; we really believe it. Out first priority is our family. Our first priority is our god. Etc., etc. But our actions do not line up with our beliefs, our promises, our claims. We’re not lying - we really don’t know ourselves as well as we think. I kept hoping that Danerys could grow into the person she wanted to be. My mistake was listening to her words and not watching her actions. Judging her based on her stated - extremely passionate - motivations, instead of her actions. Which is the same mistake i make in real life.

    with all the other characters, too, we watch them. Their actions say who they are - Tyrion, jaime, Catelyn, Ned. Jon. They don’t do what they say they’re going to do becasue they’re human beings, and most of the time we don’t know what we’re going to do - or why - until we do it. And then we’re left wondering why the hell we did it. i’m turning 44 in two weeks, and i still don’t understand my motivations. If I could have ANY fictional item from any fantasy universe, it would be the Mirror of Erised from Hogwarts. If I had that, at least I could understand myself. But I think that’s why these books are interesting. You get the character introspection, the POVs, and then the characters act In ways completely different from their POV. And it is so, so classically human. The characters ARE misunderstood, but it’s not important that we misunderstand, but that the characters misunderstand themselves. What does Tyrion want? What does Jaime want? i stil have no damn clue, and I haven’t from the second he threw Bran from that window. 

    I probably won’t read Winds of Winter. I want to know what happens because i’m invested with the characters. But the politics and war and betrayal and fanaticism, I’m just tired of reading. I Wonder if Martin is tired of writing it as well. 

     

     

    • 1437 posts
    May 17, 2019 3:44 PM EDT
    SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...ttps://youtu.be/U9JutLGbFR0

    Why did Dany burn KL? Vid