ilanisilver said: SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...   having ruminated on this for a while, i have to say I’m surprised at the way Danerys reacted in the hall when Sansa was questioning the logistics of everything and Lyanna Mormont straight up wasn’t having it. She‘s never been one to suffer in silence, and as she says, she’s their queen. She‘s acting, here, like she’s there on the sufferance of the north, when she’s really not. And even if realistically that was so, pouting in silence and then running and complaining to Jon didn’t seem to fit her character. Lately she’s been more of a burn now, reason later type.   I watched the commentary after the episode, and they talk about Danerys doing something good for the people of the north, and falling more in love with Jon, and I don’t see either of those things. I mean, yeah, her armies can do good, but I think she’d burn every last citizen of the 7 kingdoms to get the throne she thinks she’s entitled to. And falling in love with Jon could explain her behavior in the hall, but I don’t see much feeling between them, somehow. It’s just not registering with me, even though they slept together, as anything more than a political alliance. With benefits, I suppose.    @Mr. Edd, so if you think Jon isn’t the “most” legitimate king, who is? Stannis and all the Baratheons with any real claim are dead, right? Except for Gendry, and would that claim trump Jon’s or Dany’s? as Far as conquest goes, what’s going on now seems like a pretty good trial by fire. I’m just not looking forward to the inevitable power struggle between Jon and Danerys. Her power struggle, more like, and his realization that she doesn’t really have everyone’s best interests at heart. I don’t really want either one on the throne. He doesn’t want to be, and she’s not a good choice. Sansa or Arya seem a better choice. Or even Jaime. Hell, put Bran on the throne, although he has gotten a bit cold with his loss of humanity.  Yeah, I get the feeling that Dany is by now obsessed with the Iron Throne above everything else. @Mr. Edd, so if you think Jon isn’t the “most” legitimate king, who is? Stannis and all the Baratheons with any real claim are dead, right? Except for Gendry, and would that claim trump Jon’s or Dany’s? as Far as conquest goes, what’s going on now seems like a pretty good trial by fire. I’m just not looking forward to the inevitable power struggle between Jon and Danerys. Her power struggle, more like, and his realization that she doesn’t really have everyone’s best interests at heart. I don’t really want either one on the throne. He doesn’t want to be, and she’s not a good choice. Sansa or Arya seem a better choice. Or even Jaime. Hell, put Bran on the throne, although he has gotten a bit cold with his loss of humanity. Oh, "legally" speaking, I don't think anyone is entitled to the Iron Throne anymore. The legal inheritance line died with Stannis and Shireen, and with no more Baratheons around, that's when you start looking for cousins or such, but the show never went there. The situation in the Seven Kingdoms right now is exactly where Littlefinger would have wanted it: complete anarchy and chaos. Nothing is certain. The Iron Throne belongs to whomever has the power for that, and right now it happens to be Cersei. The only certain thing is that I think Jon and Daenerys should respect the North, the Vale and possibly the Riverlands' decision to secede. When Jon bent the knee to Dany, he didn't consult the people that crowned him nor his sister, whom he left ruling in his absence. It doesn't matter that the world is ending, this is Game of Thrones (a mirror to real life), there are political ramifications to everything you do, especially when what you do is bend the knee to the daughter of the tyrant you fought against (for example, last episode we heard that House Glover wasn't coming to Winterfell to aid in the battle against the dead. Lord Glover had been one of the men who crowned Jon).  

In your reply to this thread, please paste this at the top of your comment before writing your actual reply: SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers... Just posting this in case someone want to talk about this episode. I'll reply to ilani on the other thread first before focusing on this one. What did you think of it? Did you enjoy it? What was the most interesting thing to you? What are your predictions to episode 2? Talk about anything you want. But remember, NO LEAKS.

ilanisilver said: SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers...     My husband is finally back from Texas (been traveling for work for the past month), so I finally get to watch GoT tonight.  I agree with much of your assessment of ”what they did wrong.” I have no idea why they switched Stannis’s character so much. He wasn’t a religious zealot; he was a rule follower to the end, IIRC. It’s been since 2011 since I picked the books up, so many of the details are a little swimmy. But I have no idea why they did that. Maybe because they toned down the whole Lord of Light thing in the rest of the storylines? From what I remember, it was a bigger part of the books, and although I HATED them all with the heat of a thousand suns, I was curious about what was up, there. Real magic, it seemed like. So I was in. But they didn’t do that as well in the show, so maybe throwing it Stannis’s way was their way of reorganizing? Whatever, it didn’t work.  YES. The whole Dornish thing was crazy. I did LOVE their casting choices. Absolutely perfect. And then...ugh. They missed so much with them.  I disagree a bit with Littlefinger. I thought his character was spot on.  One thing I remember liking more in the books was their treatment of greyscale. It seemed more, I don’t know, mystical in the books. And if I’m rremembering correctly, and I’m probably not, wasn’t there a scene where Tyrion found another Targaryen heir in a boat along with a bunch of Stone Men? Is that right, or am I completely hallucinating?  Now, I do think the show did some things better than the books, and I know that’s sacrilege to say, but you know, Martin does a lot of things well. But moving the plot the fuck along...well, I think he could get a little more snappy with it. I remember throwing the last book across the room when it was done and vowing never to read another until I knew for sure that something happened. I LOVE that the show is giving us more beyond the wall than the books did, for one. I’m disappointed in both show and books in their treatment of Valyria - it’s like, they keep teasing us with it, and doing nothing. And I get holding some things out, drawing out the plot, but damn. If Valyria was going to be part of the plot, it needs to be a bigger presence by now. And if not...stop teasing.  But yeah, the show is deeply satisfying. I think some of the gore/torture goes from necessary to gratuitous a few more times than it should, but like it or not, some people/places really are grimdark, so I can’t fault them too much for that. I AM terribly afraid of what they’re doing to Tyrion’s character. I’ve heard the same of Danerys’s character, but she’s been devolving very slowly into whatever madness seemed to possess her brother, so I’m less surprised by her transformation from mostly reasonable to whatever’s going on with her now. But I’m terrified of what they’re doing to Tyrion. It bothered me last season that he believed what Cersei told him about the truce. pregnancy or not, I don’t think Tyrion would trust his sister with anyone’s life. He KNOWS better. Unless HE’S lying, which...I haven’t seen season 8 yet and didn’t scan over your points above, so I have no idea what happened in episode one yet. And there is history of tyrion letting his heart cloud his head, it’s not like they’re coming out of nowhere with it, IF it’s something that he’s doing because he resents Danerys and Jon getting together. But I just don’t think he’d trust Cersei. So, I’m worried. OH! I disagree a bit with the “sugarcoating his wickedness” in the books. Like I said, I could be remembering incorrectly, but I don’t Really think Tyrion was wicked in the books. At least, no more than he had to be to survive. He was definitely hedonistic and incredibly self destructive, which is crazy when you think about how hard he had to struggle just to stay alive in his damn family. I like the bit of gloss they put on his character, though. Making him slightly shinier than he was in the books. A little slicker and more urbane, I guess? And I’m guessing they did that to speed things along a bit. Which might be why they’re doing to him what thye’re Doing now. I don’t know, changing him. We’ll see when I see episode one, and maybe I’ll do what you’re doing and watch it from the start. That could be fun.  Sorry for the late reply. Went back to my hometown for Eastern and stayed a little away from computers. I'll reply to your first post. On Stannis: Maybe because they toned down the whole Lord of Light thing in the rest of the storylines? From what I remember, it was a bigger part of the books, and although I HATED them all with the heat of a thousand suns, I was curious about what was up, there. Real magic, it seemed like. So I was in. But they didn’t do that as well in the show, so maybe throwing it Stannis’s way was their way of reorganizing? Whatever, it didn’t work. D&D are on record, in interviews, saying they were not fans of him when reading the books. I wonder just how much that influenced their portrayal of him. While the books delve a lot more in prophecies (not just the Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised thing), the show still covers them somewhat with Melisandre. We also have to take in account their decision to do only 8 seasons, so they had to cut things. I'm pretty confident that much of the Jon/Sansa plotlines in Season 6 and 7 are going to be played out by Stannis and the other Northern lords in the books. Sansa isn't even in the North, and I think Jon's resurrection will be a lot more complicated than waggling fingers over a dead body and saying prayers (I have a feeling that Shireen might be sacrificed by Melisandre and her mother, who stayed at the Wall, to bring Jon back). That said, I don't know why they decided to cut Stannis and the Northern Conspiracy plotlines, or the Jaime goes to the Riverlands and breaks off with Cersei a lot sooner than he did in the show, or Lady Stoneheart hunts Freys, or anything, and decided to add the dreadful, adapted show Dornish plotline. One thing I remember liking more in the books was their treatment of greyscale. It seemed more, I don’t know, mystical in the books. And if I’m rremembering correctly, and I’m probably not, wasn’t there a scene where Tyrion found another Targaryen heir in a boat along with a bunch of Stone Men? Is that right, or am I completely hallucinating?  That's right! Fake Aegon and Jon Connington and a huge part of the books related to them were cut from the show. This also explains why Varys looks a bit lost: he wasn't supposed to be where he is in the show, since in the books, his whole life has been spent setting up Westeros for the "Return of the (fake) King". I believe this will also have heavy repercussions on Dany's storyline: fake Aegon has already landed in Westeros, conquered Storm's End (House Baratheon's capital), and it looks like Dorne will declare for him, and possibly the Reach. In the books, it looks like we will have a civil war between two Targaryens (Dany vs fAegon) instead of the Dany vs Lannister we had in the show. Now, I do think the show did some things better than the books, and I know that’s sacrilege to say, but you know, Martin does a lot of things well. But moving the plot the fuck along...well, I think he could get a little more snappy with it. I remember throwing the last book across the room when it was done and vowing never to read another until I knew for sure that something happened. I LOVE that the show is giving us more beyond the wall than the books did, for one. I’m disappointed in both show and books in their treatment of Valyria - it’s like, they keep teasing us with it, and doing nothing. And I get holding some things out, drawing out the plot, but damn. If Valyria was going to be part of the plot, it needs to be a bigger presence by now. And if not...stop teasing. Yeah, Martin got lost a bit after A Storm of Swords, but I think this "shortcoming" of his is also one of the reasons I love his books: they are so detailed and rich, you can talk and read about them almost endlessly. I think Martin said in interviews that book 6 is going to go further beyond the Wall than his books ever had before. I wonder what we'll see. As for Valyria, I agree, but I think the mystery is the point of it... That said, there are some theories that Valyria was destroyed by the Faceless Men (who were possibly created by former Valyrian slaves), who murdered the 14 Warlocks or Wizards who were responsible for keeping 14 Volcanoes "dormant". It's also said that no man that has gone there has survived, but in the books, Euron Greyjoy claims to have gone to Valyria and returned (and I kind of believe him, given his released chapter from book 6). I AM terribly afraid of what they’re doing to Tyrion’s character. I’ve heard the same of Danerys’s character, but she’s been devolving very slowly into whatever madness seemed to possess her brother, so I’m less surprised by her transformation from mostly reasonable to whatever’s going on with her now. But I’m terrified of what they’re doing to Tyrion. It bothered me last season that he believed what Cersei told him about the truce. pregnancy or not, I don’t think Tyrion would trust his sister with anyone’s life. He KNOWS better. Unless HE’S lying, which...I haven’t seen season 8 yet and didn’t scan over your points above, so I have no idea what happened in episode one yet. And there is history of tyrion letting his heart cloud his head, it’s not like they’re coming out of nowhere with it, IF it’s something that he’s doing because he resents Danerys and Jon getting together. But I just don’t think he’d trust Cersei. So, I’m worried. OH! I disagree a bit with the “sugarcoating his wickedness” in the books. Like I said, I could be remembering incorrectly, but I don’t Really think Tyrion was wicked in the books. At least, no more than he had to be to survive. He was definitely hedonistic and incredibly self destructive, which is crazy when you think about how hard he had to struggle just to stay alive in his damn family. I like the bit of gloss they put on his character, though. Making him slightly shinier than he was in the books. A little slicker and more urbane, I guess? And I’m guessing they did that to speed things along a bit. Which might be why they’re doing to him what thye’re Doing now. I don’t know, changing him. We’ll see when I see episode one, and maybe I’ll do what you’re doing and watch it from the start. That could be fun. In the books, it looks to me like Tyrion is going the opposite way from Jaime: Jaime goes from "bad guy" to "good guy" and Tyrion goes from "good guy" to "bad guy". Tyrion is a lot more dark in the books, especially after he murdered his father. He meets a lady dwarf and is really mean to her, speaks of coming back to Westeros and raping Cersei, and actively tries to undermine fake Aegon just for the sake of undermining him. It's like he has no more reason to try to be good, you know? About Daenerys... I don't think its necessarily that she's crazy. I think what matters here is perspective: up until now, she was only fighting and burning people who opposed here but were also almost cartoonish villains (slavers, warlocks, misognystic rapists...). Thing is, maybe she was only burning them because they opposed her, not because they were evil. Being evil was just a "plus" on her book. Now that she's in Westeros, the only thing that will change is our perspective: she's not fighting evil cartoonish villains anymore. She's now fighting people we have grown to like through five, six books (seven, eight seasons). Even people like the Tarlys are not cartoonish villains. Daenerys claims soldiers fight for Cersei out of fear, but was it out of loyalty or out of fear that the Tarly soldiers bent the knee for her last season, after seeing their lord and his heir being burned alive? Daenerys didn't change, the characters she interacts with have.

SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers... Not really related to the episode, but... I realize now that I have never actually seen (at least not entirely) the first two Seasons of Game of Thrones. I figured I had already read the books, so why bother? Might as well start with what's on TV right now (which back then was season 3). Now I just finished the first episode of the first season, and damn... It's really good. I'm going to miss this show. I just hope they'll do another adaptation once all books are out, and this time they try to cut less and change less things, since everyting will be much clearer to the future writers/directors. No turning Stannis into a religious zealot, not cutting fAegon and Jon Connington, not killing Barristan Selmy too early, not sugarcoating Tyrion and his wickedness, not ruining Doran Martell and the entire Dornish plot and doing Euron Greyjoy, the Northern Conspiracy, Wyman Manderly, Varys, the Vale and Littlefinger right. It would be glorious. This post was edited by Mr. Edd at April 16, 2019 11:18 PM EDT

SPOILER WARNING! Do not click on "more" if you don't want to be spoiled! This discussion contains spoilers for Game of Thrones Season 8, previous seasons of the show, the "A Song of Ice and Fire" book series and related works by George R. R. Martin. If you haven't watched this episode yet, leave now, for the discussion is dark, and full of spoilers... It was a good episode, but my experience of it was made worse by HBO GO's website. I heard it's a recurring problem for HBO on premiere nights: they just don't have the servers for it. Netflix is miles better. My points of interest: (might add some more later, upon further viewings of the episode) The new opening is really interesting. Everything is a lot more contained, not only in reach, but in the own locations featured. Everything feels a lot more... claustrophobic? Fitting for the ending, the Game just got a lot more personal and the stakes couldn't be higher because of that: anything that happens now will have a higher chance of affecting a larger group of people than in previous seasons.   Loved the actual opening of the series, from the POV of the random boy and Arya, watching as Jon and the Targaryen bitch arrive in Winterfell. The soundtrack had hints of the one in the first episode of Season 1, when Robert arrived in Winterfell to ask Ned to become the new Hand. We all know how that worked out.   Daenerys clearly expected to be welcomed and cheered on by the masses. It says a lot about her that she smirked when she realized how the common people were afraid of her dragons. It also says a lot about her when she doesn't give a fuck about logistics and the actual work that goes behind feeding an army and her dragons - that "Whatever they want" answer to Sansa's question of "what do dragons eat?" was a really poor choice of words, but fitting for a despot.   Sansa was the MVP here. I'm so happy. I love Sansa, I named my collie Sansa, lol. She (show Sansa, not my dog) was the only one to realize - not even Tyrion did - that Cersei had outplayed them all, she's the one that has been making sure Winterfell and her people are fed and that everything works, she's the one "keeping it real" when it comes to Daenerys, her armies and Jon putting down his crown.   Daenerys was badmouthing Sansa to Jon. "Wee, she doesn't like me, but, BUT I'm her queen!" There were subtle threats made to Sansa here, and boy, if there's one way to get me to dislike Daenerys even more, is to get her to hurt Sansa. In return, this conflict will make me like Sansa even more: the latter is a lot more "queenly", or regal, if you know what I mean, than the former. She's also smarter and kinder. I bet Dany won't stand that.   Speaking of royalty and vassals, Sansa's got the personal loyalty of the entire Vale (represented in the person of Yohn Royce, the white-haired, older dude who was always around her last episode), Arya, Brienne and, I believe, the entire north. Not only is she the daughter of Ned Stark, but with Jon bending the knee, I'm pretty sure the northerners will start seeing her as the true representative of the North, especially after Jon's parentage is made public. I'm betting she'll soon have Jaime's loyalty too.   Sam and Jon now know what Dany did to Sam's parents, but they don't know she burned them alive, like a good old Targaryen king liked to. I hope we haven't seen the last of this plotline, Sam is clearly distraught over what Daenerys did, and he doesn't even know the details of it yet. Jon tries to sugarcoat it, but it's the first time he's having second thoughts about Daenerys.   Jon now knows he's the "legitimate" king. I use "legitimate" because I don't think he is the legitimate king, as that honor, by right of conquest and given the nature of Robert's children, belonged to Stannis Baratheon. But Jon is certainly more legitimate than Daenerys. Sam had a very interesting question here that, again, speaks volumes about Daenerys: Jon is willing to forsake his crown for the good of the people, is Daenerys willing to do the same? Hint: she isn't.