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Character Chat: Taladran Sarethi

    • 1329 posts
    May 6, 2019 1:19 AM EDT

    What is a Character Chat? Well hopefully it's a new somewhat simple way to discuss characters we're playing with in-depth without needing to get to the stage of figuring out if you want to post it as a more defined type of content, Character Builds or Roleplaying Profiles for example, or even if it ends up as part of a Story. The idea is if you've got a character that isn't developed enough to undeniably go in a single group, and touches majorly on several types of content, that we just post a general sort of thread about the character and chat about expanding it beyond just a vague thread of ideas. 

    This particular character is pretty much undefined in where it'll end up, if I end up posting it. I have a lot of elements from Roleplaying and Lore, but there's going to be a Character Building element in there as well. The Lore and Roleplaying are complicated a bit, because by that I mean a lot of this is going to be generally fleshing out some vague ideas of modern Dunmeri culture that we just don't have a great source for in Lore. So part of what I want to do is try and break down what few sources we have and hit on some major points of discussion about what it means to be a Dunmer in the Fourth Era.

    Character Basics:

    Name: Taladran Sarethi

    Race: Dunmer

    Occupation: Buoyant Ordinator (name pending, see further down), Spy and Redoran Soldier 

    Great House: House Redoran

    Birthsign/Standing Stone: The Mage

    Major Skills: , Block, Destruction, Heavy Armour, One-Handed and Restoration .

    Minor Skills: Archery, Alteration, Sneak and Speech.

    Age: 63

    Home: Mournhold

    Great House: House Redoran

    The Core Concept:

    The idea for this character, Taladran Sarethi, is that he's a loyal worshipper of the Old Tribunal, Almalexia, Sotha Sil and Vivec. As you can tell by his age, he isn't an old worshipper of the Tribunal who refused to let go of the past after their deaths, he's someone that has been alive only in a period where the Living Tribunal were dead for upwards of a century, their Temple stamped out and replaced with the New Tribunal, and any sembelence of their modern power has completely vanished. Almalexia City has more or less been either destroyed or simply changed and forgotten, Vivec City was destroyed completely, The Clockwork City is...shrouded in just as much mystery as ever, it still exists. It's not uncommon to worship 'dead gods' but we at least have evidence of Kyne or any other Imperial/Nordic god having some level of power over mortal lives, but the Tribunal don't have that. They cannot influence the mortal realm, because...well they aren't Gods anymore.

    To me, this scenario creates a fascinating character that I wanted to explore. How does this character come to worship the Tribunal, despite all logic pointing towards the fact that the Old Tribunal, may not be despised (because they did help Morrowind) but have at least been discarded in favor of the 'Good Daedra'. What is his relation with other Dunmer? How does he treat the New Tribunal? Afterall it could be argued that Azura is directly responsible for the death of Almalexia, if not the collapse of the Tribunal as a whole. That's what I want to explore with this 'Character Chat' and I think that it was worth posting something like this and trying to turn it into a discussion rather than just messaging Phil with vague ideas and probably scrapping the whole concept at some point :P

    The Buoyant Ordinators:

    Still working on the actual name here, but this is essentially an order that has combined the Ordinators and Buoyant Armigers into a single faction that is completely loyal to the memory of the Tribunal. This faciton was established shortly after the Oblivion Crisis, when the Daedric armies of Mehrunes Dagon attacked the Ghostgate in Morrowind, almost completely destroying the most loyal members of both factions who were in place to defend Morrowind from any threats located at Red Mountain (which was still home to creatures twisted by the Blight). The remaining members of both factions decided to blend the two together, creating an Order of Warrior-Spy-Priests who would forever be loyal to the Tribunal and attempt to bring them back in some form (whether it's members mantling the Tribunal, discovering what happened to Vivec, ressurecting them or any other means they could think of). To do this they have infiltrated the Great Houses of Morrowind (Dres, Sadras, Telvanni, Redoran and Indoril), but very rarely recruit members to join them. Instead they simply gather information, try to spread doubt regarding the Good Daedra as much as possible without revealing themselves. 

    It's a difficult task, and one that isn't fully realized by any single individual, but their devotion to the Tribunal is absolute. 

    Starting Points:

    • Character Motivations based purely on basic history, ignoring the more in-depth stuff regarding the Tribunal. Examples include discussing what it means to grow up in Mournhold after it was sacked in 4E 6, basically meant he grew up in a city that had been devastated by the Argonians and then a large portion of the city would've moved to Blacklight after it became the new capital. The effect of The Red Year, invasions by the Argonian, lack of support from the Empire, rumours of the treatment of Dunmer in Windhelm (which effects the general perception of Skyrim) etc. There's a tonne that can be explored here and luckily (for some people) it's pretty barebones in Lore so there's a tonne of room for experimentation.

    • Opinions on worship of Vivec and Almalexia. Sotha Sil, I think is still relatively untouched by the events of Morrowind besides being killed. Vivec however can vaguely be associated with the complete destruction of Vvardenfell, and the eruption of Red Mountain. Almalexia on the other hand is associated with killing Sotha Sil, betraying the Nerevarine and Nerever himself for that matter. That's just the start really, but she's in a bit of a pickle. To be fair then we kind of need to address Dunmeri culture because it's not like back-stabbing is entirely frowned upon there. 

    • Obviously figuring out Taladran's worship is going to be a huge part of what I need to do. For starters though I just want to focus on how he deals with other religions, cultures or races. For example I think he'd have a pretty stone-set hatred for the Ashlander Tribes, as the ones to spread the 'truth' about the Tribunal and being part of the set-up for their downfall. There's still his thoughts on the Empire, New Temple, the Great Houses, The Anticipations/New Tribunal/Good Daedra, hell even just his opinion on all Daedra. 

    Sources:

    The Reclamations is of course a huge source of knowledge for the actual treatment of the Old Tribunal after the events of the Red Year. 

    The Fall of Ald'ruhn is a minor source that provides a neat possible backdrop for the Sarethi family. The Buoyant Armigers: Swords of Vivec is another smaller source.

    The Trial of Vivec is honestly just one of my favourite sources at the moment, OOG and it's all about MK and Vivec which is a combination that I love. I'd use What My Beloved Taught Me if I could, but I can't figure that out...well I could but I can't think of a tasteful way to use it :P 

    The AlmalexiaSotha Sil and Vivec pages, as well as The Tribunal Temple, all from UESP have a great range of sources to cover. A lot of it, maybe even too much in fact. It's just easier to link to those pages rather than each individual source, unless I decide something is going to be a huge part of the character.

     


    This post was edited by Dragonborn2121 at May 17, 2019 7:40 AM EDT
    • 1552 posts
    May 6, 2019 7:23 AM EDT
    I like this idea DB!

    With Dunmeri society I think it might pay to figure out which of the Great Houses Taladran belongs to because that might help fill in the little details as to how came to follow the teachings of the Tribunal long after their deaths/departures. Perhaps he belongs to Indoril and had parents or grandparents who didn't become part of the new Temple of the Reclamations. I imagine prominent members of the Tribunal Temple would face a huge crisis of faith. The Reclamations book has a great paragraph addressing the shifting of power and influence among the dissident priests and Indoril, as well as how the Tribunal are now acknowledged as saints.

    So there could be a lot of scope there to explore what Taladran's family did. Did they become part of the New Temple but continue to secretly hold the Tribunal in higher regard than the Reclamations and thus pass that down to Taladran? Or maybe they chose to keep their faith and totally abandon the new Temple, maybe starting a life in Cyrodiil. Or absurdly, if the ashlanders are now held in high esteem by the majority, perhaps his family have become outcasts to both Great House Dunmer and Ashlander alike, eeking their existence somewhere in the wilderness in the belief one day they will be vindicated when their gods return.

    The house mer can also marry into other houses. Because Telvanni don't give a guar's arse about religion, perhaps his family married into that house to escape persecution and/or have freedom to do as they pleased.

    But yeah, maybe deciding on a house would help narrow down his family's outlook on matters of faith. A scion of Hlaalu might be very open about other religions compared with any remaining Dres, for example.
    • 1329 posts
    May 6, 2019 8:11 AM EDT

    With Dunmeri society I think it might pay to figure out which of the Great Houses Taladran belongs to because that might help fill in the little details as to how came to follow the teachings of the Tribunal long after their deaths/departures. Perhaps he belongs to Indoril and had parents or grandparents who didn't become part of the new Temple of the Reclamations. I imagine prominent members of the Tribunal Temple would face a huge crisis of faith. The Reclamations book has a great paragraph addressing the shifting of power and influence among the dissident priests and Indoril, as well as how the Tribunal are now acknowledged as saints. 

     

    So there could be a lot of scope there to explore what Taladran's family did. Did they become part of the New Temple but continue to secretly hold the Tribunal in higher regard than the Reclamations and thus pass that down to Taladran? Or maybe they chose to keep their faith and totally abandon the new Temple, maybe starting a life in Cyrodiil. Or absurdly, if the ashlanders are now held in high esteem by the majority, perhaps his family have become outcasts to both Great House Dunmer and Ashlander alike, eeking their existence somewhere in the wilderness in the belief one day they will be vindicated when their gods return.

    The house mer can also marry into other houses. Because Telvanni don't give a guar's arse about religion, perhaps his family married into that house to escape persecution and/or have freedom to do as they pleased.

    But yeah, maybe deciding on a house would help narrow down his family's outlook on matters of faith. A scion of Hlaalu might be very open about other religions compared with any remaining Dres, for example.

    The tough thing with that is figuring out how the Old Tribunal would be seen. What little we're told is in the Reclamations really, and it paints a picture of a culture that venerates to the extent that they're still considered Saints. It's not like, for the most part, Dunmer hate the Old Tribunal and want to burn everything they created. I think a certain level of respect for what they used to be is logical, even if there's some dislike for what they ended up becoming. But at the same time, I don't really consider that realistic, its' fine if that's an official stance used to bring over the Indoril (which is hinted) at but I can't see that being a widely held belief. I mean, the Tribunal lied to the Dunmer for millenia and arguably caused more death than anything else in Dunmeri history. Baar Dau in particular is something that, I just can't really reconcile with. Vivec even says that he left it up there intentionally, and I honestly can't imagine that most would really be okay with that. Diehard worshippers yes, but the devastation that brought is unforgiveable. 

    So, it's a tough thing. Do we use the official sources which suggest that while the Tribunal are cast aside, they're still venerated to some degree? Or do we base our own opinions of Morrowind off our own thoughts on the events of Red Year, and TES: III? 

    At the moment I am thinking that Indoril, Hlallu or Telvanni would be the best starting points. Dres, Redoran and Sadras are either just a bit too unlikely or I know too little about them to properly create something interesting. Sadras might be more fun because there's an infinite amount of freedom that they provide. There's nothing about them, so we could build upon the House in just about any direction.

     

    Okay huge thing I feel stupid and genius for. I forgot to actually look at the Sarethi family which I based his name off, and it's all kinds of interesting. They seem to primarily be a Redoran family with three of their four members being pretty high up there. The fourth, and the only one that we aren't told isn't closely related to the other three, is a Buoyant Armiger. It's lucky but that final option couldn't be any luckier because it creates room for a schism that means I don't have to create a convuluted backstory for his family. I've got a path for Redoran and the other Houses built into the family's history.

    There are also Sarethi's in Skyrim and ESO, but they're kinda useless here. The former are just farmers in Skyrim while the others are a big vague.

     

     

    • 1552 posts
    May 6, 2019 11:14 AM EDT
    That's also the most fun thing, though! Or at least I think so. I suppose it's a question of how much does the average citizen know vs how much the clergy know. Taking the moonlet example you use, the way Vivec has worded that in the sermons could leave the Dunmer people thinking that Red Year was their fault. So in that respect, having the tribunal as saints could be less about placating Indoril as it is about hearts and minds for the populace. Contrast to that, the priesthood could know the truth and be utterly appalled. So it depends on how you want to see it and how much your character knows.

    I don't want to spoil the end of Morrowind ESO, but the Dunmer have had their faith tested before involving Baar Dau. They didn't lose faith then, so maybe they still haven't. Plus, how much of the powershift within Indoril did they see and how much do they know regarding that? I'm guessing only what they're told. So do they believe what they're told or adopt their own beliefs in the wake of all this upheaval? So I'd say, in the absence of a definitive answer, go with what is most fun to include in your background and backstory.

    I'm excited by the Armiger connection. Man, if you haven't already check out the ESO Racial Motif books for the Buoyant Armiger and Militant Ordinator styles. There's a great book called A Guide to Liturgical Vestments which details the minute rituals involved with getting dressed. Like, all this stuff we don't see but is a way of life to the most devout. How do the Armigers and Ordinators handle the departure of their gods? Can they shake those rituals which were so drummed into them, or adapt them to serve the Reclamations? Or do they each feel lost and alone, unable to speak to the Tribunal they were so close to and unwilling to approach the Good Daedra, and so wander the land with no purpose... Or perhaps even gather together in isolated bands finding new causes to live for. I don't think there are answers except those you wish to explore.
    • 194 posts
    May 6, 2019 11:51 AM EDT
    Are they just farmers, though? Or could they be more. She’s always exhausted, and yeah, farming and taking care of her idiot sister is enough, but what if there’s more to it? I could see a cool story there, especially with her connection to Sinderion. This is the problem with me - all the lore about Vivec and the rest makes my eyes glaze over. I simply can’t force myself to read about it. But the possible secret life of a nirnroot farmer in BFE Skyrim makes me truly excited.
    • 18 posts
    May 6, 2019 9:38 PM EDT
    Diggin how deep you’re digging! Dunmer are the juiciest chars to role play when old lore is tied in. The chat is also a great idea, I too have a bunch of characters that I’m not sure on which platform to actualize, I’ll probably just do rp profiles, builds AND stories for each of them lmao kill me
    • 1329 posts
    May 6, 2019 10:02 PM EDT

    That's also the most fun thing, though! Or at least I think so. I suppose it's a question of how much does the average citizen know vs how much the clergy know. Taking the moonlet example you use, the way Vivec has worded that in the sermons could leave the Dunmer people thinking that Red Year was their fault. So in that respect, having the tribunal as saints could be less about placating Indoril as it is about hearts and minds for the populace. Contrast to that, the priesthood could know the truth and be utterly appalled. So it depends on how you want to see it and how much your character knows. 

    Yeah that's true. To be honest, and I think that makes a lot of sense. I think, personally at least it would be more interesting for him to be fully aware of most of what the Tribunal did, and providing minimal excuses for it. I really want there to be a hatred for Azura at the very least (as the Daedra to trick the Nerever into killing Almalexia and removing the power of Vivec), and possibly the other 'Good Daedra'. That said, I think it's just as interesting for him to be a denialist, I just don't want there to be an element to his story where he's decieved or tricked into worshipping the Tribunal, it has to be a concious choice, otherwise he could minimize ever taking responsibility for his opinions.

    I don't want to spoil the end of Morrowind ESO, but the Dunmer have had their faith tested before involving Baar Dau. They didn't lose faith then, so maybe they still haven't. Plus, how much of the powershift within Indoril did they see and how much do they know regarding that? I'm guessing only what they're told. So do they believe what they're told or adopt their own beliefs in the wake of all this upheaval? So I'd say, in the absence of a definitive answer, go with what is most fun to include in your background and backstory.

    Sadly that was spoiled for me already. I think at least there's a difference there because the average Mer could justify it as not Vivec's fault and blame it on...okay at least that hasn't been spoiled for me, but the point is that there's someone else to blame. Yeah they could blame themselves, but to be honest if they did (to a large extent) I think we would have a world where Tribunal-worship is still the primary religion of Morrowind. 

    I'm excited by the Armiger connection. Man, if you haven't already check out the ESO Racial Motif books for the Buoyant Armiger and Militant Ordinator styles. There's a great book called A Guide to Liturgical Vestments which details the minute rituals involved with getting dressed. Like, all this stuff we don't see but is a way of life to the most devout. How do the Armigers and Ordinators handle the departure of their gods? Can they shake those rituals which were so drummed into them, or adapt them to serve the Reclamations? Or do they each feel lost and alone, unable to speak to the Tribunal they were so close to and unwilling to approach the Good Daedra, and so wander the land with no purpose... Or perhaps even gather together in isolated bands finding new causes to live for. I don't think there are answers except those you wish to explore. 

     

    I think this is honestly the angle that interests me the most at the moment. The Armigers kind of set themselves up perfectly as a background for Taladran, and it's making me think that it's the angle I want to work with for the most part. They're even a somewhat perfect 'playstyle' match for him, with the skills from the NPC Class being pretty well represented here. Might even have to change him to Light Armour just for that sweet, sweet Glass Armour. There's still plenty of room for the Great House he's apart of too play a role, but considering everything about the Armigers (including the fact that they dissapeared from view after the creation of the New Tribunal) that connection is just a bit too perfect. But shit, it reminds me of how clean Morrowind's lore can feel. There's all these tiny connections to characters and lorebooks and sources that just makes it feel like everything was put together like a puzzle. 

    Thanks for your thoughts Phil, and I'll definitely check out the Racial Motif books and A Guide to Liturgical Vestments. 

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    The Fall of Ald'Ruhn is now becoming a lesser source for this character. It's really minor but the backdrop of a Daedric invasion of Ghostgate is too good to pass up. OH SHIT, even the timing of the Oblivion Crisis is perfect for my character. Think about it, shortly after Azura's Champion pushes out the Tribunal, a massive Daedric Invasion threatens all of Morrowind, resulting in the deaths of thousands of Dunmer. Can't really think of a better justification than that to blame Azura for just about anything.

    • 1329 posts
    May 6, 2019 10:05 PM EDT
    Are they just farmers, though? Or could they be more. She’s always exhausted, and yeah, farming and taking care of her idiot sister is enough, but what if there’s more to it? I could see a cool story there, especially with her connection to Sinderion. This is the problem with me - all the lore about Vivec and the rest makes my eyes glaze over. I simply can’t force myself to read about it. But the possible secret life of a nirnroot farmer in BFE Skyrim makes me truly excited.

    Hah, that's fair. To be honest I get a bit the same with Bosmer or Breton lore, obviously there's a difference but I just sort of go blank when anyone's bringing it up. Yeah there could be something interesting there, and honestly it gives me a better reason than any I can think of to venture out to Skyrim, what makes more sense then visiting your estemeed, poison-growing second-cousins? Ooh, actually yeah they could be a fascinating set of characters to explore to some degree. 

    Thanks for the thoughts Ilani :D

    • 1329 posts
    May 6, 2019 10:07 PM EDT

    Diggin how deep you’re digging! Dunmer are the juiciest chars to role play when old lore is tied in. The chat is also a great idea, I too have a bunch of characters that I’m not sure on which platform to actualize, I’ll probably just do rp profiles, builds AND stories for each of them lmao kill me

    Thanks man, glad to hear it :D Might be worth trying a chat of your own with a character or two, they'd be a bit different from the looks of it just because your backstories seem more set in stone, but it'd be really interesting to read and chat about them a bit. Heh, but yeah I'm probably likely to end up with at least a build and profile, maybe a story (or set of short stories) but that depends on my courage and whether I can make it work for me :P

     

    • 9 posts
    May 7, 2019 4:16 AM EDT

    I was thinking Armigers too. They had a personal thing for Vivec, and if you love someone, especially if they are better than you in every way, well, you are with them for life, for better or for worse, and your trust in them (should) never falter.

    • 1329 posts
    May 7, 2019 4:44 AM EDT
    I was thinking Armigers too. They had a personal thing for Vivec, and if you love someone, especially if they are better than you in every way, well, you are with them for life, for better or for worse, and your trust in them (should) never falter.

    Only thing with them that's making me hesitate is that they're only really involved with Vivec, it's just a bit hard to figure out a way to spread that to the Tribunal. 

    • 1552 posts
    May 7, 2019 5:07 AM EDT
    Maybe Ordinators are the answer? Vivec has his Armigers, Almalexia has her Hands, Sotha Sil has his Apostles, but Ordinators serve all three with their own rank structure, divisions like The Order of War, Order of the Watch, Order of Inquisition and Order of Doctrine and Ordination which pursue independent objectives. Could be fun with the rivalry they have with the Armigers to have family members in these different factions.

    Also, eso introduces us to Hidden Armigers which were the Ebonheart Pact's spy ring. There is very little info about them at all so complete freedom to explore that as a concept.
    • 1329 posts
    May 7, 2019 8:49 AM EDT
    Maybe Ordinators are the answer? Vivec has his Armigers, Almalexia has her Hands, Sotha Sil has his Apostles, but Ordinators serve all three with their own rank structure, divisions like The Order of War, Order of the Watch, Order of Inquisition and Order of Doctrine and Ordination which pursue independent objectives. Could be fun with the rivalry they have with the Armigers to have family members in these different factions.

    Also, eso introduces us to Hidden Armigers which were the Ebonheart Pact's spy ring. There is very little info about them at all so complete freedom to explore that as a concept.

    Buoyant Ordinators? The true middle-ground to satisfy my warring opinions :P 

    I think either the Order of Doctrine and Ordination or The Order of Inquisition makes the most sense if I were to roll with the Ordinators. There's plenty of room for freedom with either, and they're general mission is arguably the best suited to a family that left the Temple after it stopped worshipping the Tribunal. Either could be fascinating as a way to blend into the Temple but Doctrine and Ordination could be really interesting to work with. 

    I think at least I've narrowed down the Great House. My gut's saying that either the Indoril or Hlaalu is going to work the best with either the Ordinators or Armigers if I decide to go either of those routes. 

    • 1552 posts
    May 7, 2019 9:33 AM EDT
    Another quick thought just struck as I looked at Vivec's dialogue:
    "There are still issues to be resolved between the Temple and the Dissident Priests. And now that our greatest enemy is gone, we must reorganize the Temple to meet the needs of the people. We have less need of Ordinators, for example, and greater need of priests and healers and teachers. And we must find time to mourn and honor the dead."

    And:


    "Without the power of the Heart, our divine powersdiminish. Our days as gods are numbered. I have told my priests that I shall withdraw from the world, and that the Temple should be prepared for a change. We may be honored no longer as gods, but as saints and heroes, and the Temple will return to the faith of our forefathers -- the worship of our ancestors and the three good daedra, Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah. The missions and traditions of the Temple must continue... but without its Living Gods."

    So there was this unseen final chat between Vivec and his faithful... Perhaps he gave the Ordinators and Armigers a final mission or tasked them with spreading the teachings of the Temple if they were no longer needed in Morrowind? Imagine your character's parents or grandparents being trusted with the final wishes of a living god? That conversation would have been completely off the record, maybe nobody would believe it happened but remains their cause to this day....?
    • 194 posts
    May 7, 2019 10:49 AM EDT

    “It's not uncommon to worship 'dead gods' but we at least have evidence of Kyne or any other Imperial/Nordic god having some level of power over mortal lives, but the Tribunal don't have that. They cannot influence the mortal realm, because...well they aren't Gods anymore.”

     

    You’ve probably already answered this question like a million times in other discussions, but why would someone do this? Why does someone worship a dead god that’s Not a god anymore. Does everyone know it, like we do? Do they hold out hope? Does their concept of worship mean more of a way of living, a way of thinking, and veneration of the people/beings who brought you this way of living and less a hope of intervention in the mortal realm? There’s plenty of religions out there that are more philosophy oriented; is that what this is or am I not getting something because I’m not down with this particular strain of lore? 

    • 1552 posts
    May 7, 2019 11:35 AM EDT
    I can't speak for the DB but there is something very compelling about exploring the idea of dead gods. Alastor and I had a blast building Prophet of Vivec and talking about why the character would believe that which they do.

    I think in many ways it's because there is a huge amount of uncertainty about the nature of divinity. The Psijic Order believe in the Old Ways, a belief system in which there are no gods but rather greater and lesser spirits, and that it's possible for mortals to become greater spirits by their power and influence. The idea persists in Tamrielic theology as seen in the book Gods and Worship. In that text it's hypothesised gods gain power and influence through mortal belief and actions - the more people who believe in you, the greater your spirit becomes. The idea sort of continues when we look at where souls go upon death, which is often said to be the aligned AE of that person. So if you're a big supporter of Kyne then you go to Kyne's planet (realm of Aetherius) upon death. So Kyne does literally get bigger because these souls go to her. Souls being the very fabric or matter of creatia, which gives rise to terms like Lunar Currency - the currency of the greater spirits being mortal souls in that the more you have the richer you are.

    So it gives rise to questions and a thought experiment of what happens when you pray at a shrine to, say, Saint Olms. In Morrowind you'd get a blessing and diseases cured. Is blessing that from Saint Olms directly? If so, does that mean we could potentially raise Olms from Saint to God if enough of us believed it possible?

    Someone like DB's character could have that point of view and seek to elevate the spirit of Vivec and the others back to godhood, or, as you said Ilani, just believe in the philosophy they stood for. Factor in culture in that's what that character has been raised to believe, and it becomes an organic thing and part of their life.
    • 1329 posts
    May 8, 2019 3:47 AM EDT

    “It's not uncommon to worship 'dead gods' but we at least have evidence of Kyne or any other Imperial/Nordic god having some level of power over mortal lives, but the Tribunal don't have that. They cannot influence the mortal realm, because...well they aren't Gods anymore.”

    You’ve probably already answered this question like a million times in other discussions, but why would someone do this? Why does someone worship a dead god that’s Not a god anymore. Does everyone know it, like we do? Do they hold out hope? Does their concept of worship mean more of a way of living, a way of thinking, and veneration of the people/beings who brought you this way of living and less a hope of intervention in the mortal realm? There’s plenty of religions out there that are more philosophy oriented; is that what this is or am I not getting something because I’m not down with this particular strain of lore? 

    Eh, I still haven't really figured that part out to be entirely honest with you Ilani. It's a bit tough to justify properly without it feeling convoluted or just plain stupid. I think it gets even stranged with the Tribunal because they are completely different from any other Deities, even just simply because their powers are stolen, and they have a very real impact on the world. Really, calling them Gods might even be a bit weird because it's more like they siphon and contain Divine Power rather than having their own.

    But there are a lot of paths I could take, honestly too many and I'm really haven't decided. A lot of it depends on how deep I want to delve into Lore, and also how the backstory is established. At the moment I'm probably leaning more towards it being a philosophy driven religious belief, where Taladran doesn't really worship the Tribunal, but aims to follow the path they set in leading the Dunmer people, and tries to live by the ideals that each of the Three lived by. I could also really see him being completely enarmoured with the fact that we don't know that Vivec is dead, and he endlessly pursues some way of finding Vivec and leading him back to Morrowind. That puts me a little too far in Vivec's corner and seems like it pushes the other two to the side, but it's not illogical. 

    The final idea I've had would involve attempting to Mantle the Tribunal and becomining ALMSIVI. It's a somewhat tempting idea that I'm only not using at the moment because it's complicated and involves so much Lore (and I'd need to break down 'tasks' for him to complete for all three of the Tribunal, and justify a source of divine power.). 

    EDIT: Or Phil's final answer in his response is pretty damn perfect :P Might have to go with that one over anything else because it's a legitimately fascinating idea, that makes more sense than any of mine.


    This post was edited by Dragonborn2121 at May 8, 2019 3:59 AM EDT
    • 1329 posts
    May 8, 2019 4:28 AM EDT

    Right, right, right. This has been a really good discussion so far everyone, so thank you for sharing your thoughts, asking questions and getting involved :D It's been really good and has helped me solidify a few things for the character. 

    The starting point of new decisions. I've decided that I might have been serious about the Buoyant Ordinators. That might not be the name (Because it does sound silly :P) but I think there's an entirely logical justification to it. The Order of War was traditionally stationed near Red Mountain, which is similar to the stationing of the Armigers in Ghostgate. Both forces are entirely loyal to the Tribunal (in some form), and would have a rather similar task. What I'm proposing is that  The Fall of Ald'ruhn's story about the Daedric attack on Ghostgate leads to the near-destruction of both the Armigers and Ordinators, forcing them to combine into a single force that remains loyal to the Tribunal even after they were killed.  It sort of just provides the basic background to the new Sarethi family, ties in all the little hints speckled throughout the sources and who the Sarethi were in Morrowind, and provides a logical justification for a force that is almost completely off the books, loyal to the Tribunal...and open for me to write whatever I want about. 

    Content Planned: I'm sorta half planning a story called The Siege of Ghostgate (or something along those lines) which will detail the battle and the general history of the Buoyant Ordinators (Hands of the Tribunal? Dunno, need a name for them soon), but I'm hesitant as always to actually write a story. A Faction Profile would almost certainly be interesting to experiment with here. 

    The Great House was a nice discussion, but I think it just makes more sense for them to be seperate from the Houses, but considering the identity of the Buoyant Ordinators (name pending), I think it makes sense for them to infiltrate as many houses as possible. Teladran is going to be a member of House Redoran, just because they fit his combat style and are probably going to care more about how well he fights rather than his religion. 

    Content Planned: This will be where the Roleplaying Profile comes into play I suppose. I want to write one that's going to ignore the events of Skyrim (and probably another later on) so it'll detail who he is as a member of House Redoran, and the Buoyant Ordinators (name pending).

    • 1552 posts
    May 8, 2019 5:29 AM EDT

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    But there are a lot of paths I could take, honestly too many and I'm really haven't decided. A lot of it depends on how deep I want to delve into Lore, and also how the backstory is established. At the moment I'm probably leaning more towards it being a philosophy driven religious belief, where Taladran doesn't really worship the Tribunal, but aims to follow the path they set in leading the Dunmer people, and tries to live by the ideals that each of the Three lived by. I could also really see him being completely enarmoured with the fact that we don't know that Vivec is dead, and he endlessly pursues some way of finding Vivec and leading him back to Morrowind. That puts me a little too far in Vivec's corner and seems like it pushes the other two to the side, but it's not illogical.

    It does make sense to start with Vivec because he'd be a massive help in getting in touch with the other two Tribunes, so it's probably safe to let go of any fear of favouritism and embrace the practical idea that starting with the potentially living is easier than starting with the dead.

    Dragonborn2021 said:

    Right, right, right. This has been a really good discussion so far everyone, so thank you for sharing your thoughts, asking questions and getting involved :D It's been really good and has helped me solidify a few things for the character. 

    The starting point of new decisions. I've decided that I might have been serious about the Buoyant Ordinators. That might not be the name (Because it does sound silly :P) but I think there's an entirely logical justification to it. The Order of War was traditionally stationed near Red Mountain, which is similar to the stationing of the Armigers in Ghostgate. Both forces are entirely loyal to the Tribunal (in some form), and would have a rather similar task. What I'm proposing is that  The Fall of Ald'ruhn's story about the Daedric attack on Ghostgate leads to the near-destruction of both the Armigers and Ordinators, forcing them to combine into a single force that remains loyal to the Tribunal even after they were killed.  It sort of just provides the basic background to the new Sarethi family, ties in all the little hints speckled throughout the sources and who the Sarethi were in Morrowind, and provides a logical justification for a force that is almost completely off the books, loyal to the Tribunal...and open for me to write whatever I want about. 

    Content Planned: I'm sorta half planning a story called The Siege of Ghostgate (or something along those lines) which will detail the battle and the general history of the Buoyant Ordinators (Hands of the Tribunal? Dunno, need a name for them soon), but I'm hesitant as always to actually write a story. A Faction Profile would almost certainly be interesting to experiment with here. 

    The Great House was a nice discussion, but I think it just makes more sense for them to be seperate from the Houses, but considering the identity of the Buoyant Ordinators (name pending), I think it makes sense for them to infiltrate as many houses as possible. Teladran is going to be a member of House Redoran, just because they fit his combat style and are probably going to care more about how well he fights rather than his religion. 

    Content Planned: This will be where the Roleplaying Profile comes into play I suppose. I want to write one that's going to ignore the events of Skyrim (and probably another later on) so it'll detail who he is as a member of House Redoran, and the Buoyant Ordinators (name pending).

    Awesome, DB! I kind of want to be a Buoyant Ordinator so I'd like to see a Faction Profile about these guys, for sure. Could even tie in Almalexia's Hands and have them called the Hands of Buoyant Ordination xD

    I don't understand why you're hesitant to write, though. Just put pen to paper or fingers to the keys and see what happens, no? Might find words just flow and you can't stop. Do what's fun and follow the muse! If it helps, I'd definitely like to read such a story. It's almost a personal thing because I doubt I'll ever finish my own Knight of Ald Skar and sequal Fall of Ald Skar which follow an Ordinator who fell in love with a Buoyant Armiger, with the end-game of their relationship happening against the backdrop of the Oblivion Gate at Ald'ruhn.

    So go for it, sounds like you have a brilliant concept that begs to be fully fleshed out and made manifest!

    I remember one of the ideas I had about the giant crab, Skar, was connected to a quest in ESO Morrowind. If you haven't played the quest Ancestral Ties I'd definitely, definitely recommend you do so and read about the spear, Calderas  :) I remember thinking how cool it would be to link that spear with the reanimation of Skar in a fetishistic form of magic - like, the weapon that killed the crab is somehow needed to reanimate the mighty creature.

    • 1329 posts
    May 8, 2019 8:06 AM EDT

    It does make sense to start with Vivec because he'd be a massive help in getting in touch with the other two Tribunes, so it's probably safe to let go of any fear of favouritism and embrace the practical idea that starting with the potentially living is easier than starting with the dead.

    Awesome, DB! I kind of want to be a Buoyant Ordinator so I'd like to see a Faction Profile about these guys, for sure. Could even tie in Almalexia's Hands and have them called the Hands of Buoyant Ordination xD

    I was trying to think of another faction just so we could continue on until we've conquered Morrowind purely through naming a faction :P Sadly the Hands are too good to exist anywhere near Ghostgate, they need to look pretty and...probably die? I assume they mostly died with Almalexia but I honestly can barely remember Tribunal at this point. 

    It is a catchy name though, so maybe...Oh we could get the Hidden Armigers in there so they're the Hidden Hands of Buoyant Ordination (BOOM!) :P

    I don't understand why you're hesitant to write, though. Just put pen to paper or fingers to the keys and see what happens, no? Might find words just flow and you can't stop. Do what's fun and follow the muse! If it helps, I'd definitely like to read such a story. It's almost a personal thing because I doubt I'll ever finish my own Knight of Ald Skar and sequal Fall of Ald Skar which follow an Ordinator who fell in love with a Buoyant Armiger, with the end-game of their relationship happening against the backdrop of the Oblivion Gate at Ald'ruhn.

    So go for it, sounds like you have a brilliant concept that begs to be fully fleshed out and made manifest!

    Alright, I'll at least give it a shot :) I won't promise anything, especially not the quality but I'll try and at least get a plan for the story written. 

    I remember one of the ideas I had about the giant crab, Skar, was connected to a quest in ESO Morrowind. If you haven't played the quest Ancestral Ties I'd definitely, definitely recommend you do so and read about the spear, Calderas  :) I remember thinking how cool it would be to link that spear with the reanimation of Skar in a fetishistic form of magic - like, the weapon that killed the crab is somehow needed to reanimate the mighty creature.

    I did complete that quest, but I think I sort of mostly ignored it, in the sense that it felt a bit fetch-questy to me so I blanked out and ignored it. That portion of the Main Quest was really interesting though, the idea of the false Nerevarine (which I assume I spell incorrectly 100% of the time) was awesome and the entire idea of collecting testomonies from the other failed Nerevarainineasins. Very cool stuff with the Ashlanders in ESO so it's a shame that I didn't properly pay attention to some of the early stuff. 

    But yeah SKar...very interesting stuff even if it was harder to find than most stuff (UESP is a bit slow with it's ESO Lore still.). Yeah I think that could be a really fascinating idea, it depends but you could either justify the use of Kagrenac's Tools or Muatra , Hopesfire and...part of the Clockwork City? Bit hard but I just don't know of a weapon associated with Sotha Sil other than maybe Keening and Sunder. I suppose though the Clockwork City is just as much a part of him as Muatra is a part of Vivec. I think the collection of relics associated with them would be pretty much perfect though (guessing that there isn't a mod that adds Muatra to the game :P), even if it doesn't work you still get the items and can associate something with your Gods. 

    • 1329 posts
    May 8, 2019 9:29 AM EDT

    Bone is well worth a read. I was trying to research Bonemold Armour a bit and it was kinda hilarious to read the tale of the creation of the armour (in a dark way).

    • 258 posts
    May 9, 2019 6:47 PM EDT

    Epic thread! A few ideas, in loose order:



    First, Almalexia's descent into madness may not be public knowledge. It certainly wasn't in the timeframe of TESIII; indeed, recounting her final moments nets you a disposition decrease with most NPCs, because they don't believe the Merciful Healing Mother went cuckoo-crazy and tried to kill the Nerevarine. This lends credence to her current position as a Greater Saint (along w/ Vivec, Sotha Sil, Veloth and the first Nerevar); I doubt she'd be acknowledged at all if her final moments were well-known.



    Second, on the topic of Saints: Be sure to read up on the Temple Saints lore. Frankly, they serve as amazing building-blocks for Dunmeri faith, and their stories can be useful both in OOC character/story-building and IC motivation. St. Nerevar (patron of warriors and House Redoran) is pretty relevant to this concept, but a lot of them are worth a look.


    Third, while it's kind of vague, both Sotha Sil and the Clockwork City may still be around. A ton of stuff in ESO and Legends (of all games!) indicated that Sotha Sil wasn't inhabiting his body when it died--evidence suggests he was uploaded into the city's "software", or at the very least into some digital state of being. Hence why he didn't react at all when Almalexia came to murder him. Moreover, while I can't find a lot of details on it, ES: Legends has a storyline revolving around a visit to Clockwork City in the Fourth Era, and features a mechanical replica of the Heart of Lorkhan as its' power source. Since there are multiple endings, it's unclear what the end result was, but one ending does have the City live on.



    Fourth, Taladran's family could have been present at the fall of Ald'ruhn. While he himself is too young to have been there, his parents could have fought the Daedric invaders. Also worthy of note that Skar was reportedly reanimated to fight Dagon's horde, and seeing the giant crab your city was built in/around rise up like Shin Mudcrabzilla would have certainly left an impression on the Sarethi family, if they were present.



    Fifth, remember that the Red Year and the Argonian invasion were a crisis of Dunmer faith. It would be nice to see how these earth-shaking (literally, huehuehue) events shook Taladran and his family's faith, in comparison to Morrowind as a whole.

     

    • 1329 posts
    May 9, 2019 11:39 PM EDT
    Let's see if the iPad response works...might not so I'll edit it later if it ends up looking ridiculous. Regardless, thanks a lot for the response Tene, really means a lot to me and without answering it here you've hit some awesome points.


    First Response - Oh really? Guess its been too long since I've played Tribunal (which I'll rectify at some point in this process) but that's really interesting. I think Im going to continue with, the idea that everyone involved with his story understands and knows about Almalexia, because I want it to be a fully aware choice on his part to worship her anyway. It just falls in to a murky area if he has no idea, or doesn't acknowledge what she's done, and there's a really easy workaround to it.

    Second Response - I'll take a look at them for sure, it's an area that I've never fully explored but it probably will add some interesting aspects to the character.

    Third Response - Yeah I'd seen the Clockwork City story from Legends but without playing it I have no clear idea on what could've happened. The idea of Sotho Sil. It being dead was so wing I was going to play around with (using exactly the same logic too) but it's nice to know that there's lore backing me up :D

    Fourth Response - Grandfather and Ghostgate is the current plan, I've started working on a story that focuses on that by using the Sarethi who lives their as a focal character. Skar's mentioned too because that's far more awesome than anything I could come up with :P

    Fifth Response - That's a great idea! I'd had vague plans to briefly cover it but it is a pretty massive thing that ties in too perfectly with the character and Buoyant Ordinators (name pending) so I really should focus on it a lot more than I'd originally planned. Shiit, might have to be a second story :)


    • 1329 posts
    May 10, 2019 11:42 PM EDT

    Dagon's March is officially up :D I'm a bit surprised I'm starting with a story, but this is going to flesh out some of the history of the Sarethi family (and hopefully not bugger things up too often when it comes to Lore). There's a lot of Dunmeriness that goes into it, and yes that's a real word, and it's going to be an interesting writing experience. Hope it's interesting to read as well. 

    • 1329 posts
    May 15, 2019 7:38 AM EDT

    Never had this much stress running a Basketball Team, but I've been crazy busy the last few days with some stuff, haven't worked on Taladran beyond playing the first PS4 test of him (before I get a PC and can do the proper 'build'). Anyway, my next aim here is to hash out some of the basics of life in Mournhold for Teldran. It's a pale shadow of it's former self by the time he's born, and it's most certainly not the greatest seat of power on the mainland, so I think it'd be really interesting to discuss how the city might have changed since Almalexia's death, and the then it's destruction during the Red Year and Argonian Invasion. 

    For those that don't know, it managed to survive Red Year, and ended up becoming a bit of a refugee camp before it was attacked by the Argonian Army. The odds are pretty good that it was a relatively early target considering it's located in the region that borders Black Marsh, and the region is pretty heavily swamp when compared to other areas of Morrowind. So there's a lot of basic stuff right there that could create an interesting starting point for Teledran, even if at some point he becomes Redoran for spying reasons. He still grew up in Mournhold, even if he wasn't alive for the Invasion.