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What Skyrim Quests Have You Still Not Completed?

    • 393 posts
    December 17, 2015 3:46 PM EST

    I never said that Paarthurnax is sweet and innocent. He is a dragon with all what it means, but he tries to fight his nature and do better things.

    And also I'd prefer the dragons follow Paarthurnax and his Way of the Voice instead of scatter all over Skyrim and do what they want.

    And the humans I mentioned are worse than dragons, because they aren't bastards because of their evil nature, but because of their counscious choice. If they deserve to live, so Paarthurnax deserves all the more.

    • 168 posts
    December 17, 2015 4:15 PM EST

    The Thalmor don't kill civilians because that would be a violation of the White-Gold Concordat, but they killed civilians during the sack of the Imperial City.

    Galmar's brother is essential because he is one of many target of Thieves Guild's fishing job. Only PC players can kill him by using console commands.

    • 1580 posts
    December 17, 2015 4:18 PM EST

    I don't know if you are making fair comparisons here. By saying If they deserve to live, so Paarthurnax deserves all the more we need to look at those examples:

    any Daedra worshipper? They kill a lot of people too

    Being a worshipper of a Daedric Prince does not make you an evil person. It depends on which of the Principalities a character venerates and to what extent they act upon the teachings of the demon. You really can't compare an Azura worshipper to a fanatic Dagonite for example.

    remember the Markarth incident? Why no one says Ulfric is a psychopath?

    The Ulfric discussion has been visited many times and doesn't bear repeating but rest assured I am not ignoring his crimes and am not the most likely guy to say Ulfric deserves to live. The trouble with the Markarth Incident is that it is veiled by opinion, bias and justified necessity in a way that Paarthurnax's crimes aren't.

    And the humans I mentioned are worse than dragons, because they aren't bastards because of their evil nature, but because of their counscious choice.

    I did acknowledge this you may recall when I mentioned diminished responsibility and the fact that a dragon has an excuse for it's actions in a way humans don't. Yet that is a slippery slope to go down because now we are comparing humans with dragons and using those judgements to help us judge Paarthurnax. We have already seen that this is almost futile, in much the same way that an argument with a sapient cat would be an exercise in frustration.

    The bottom line is not whether you think Ulfric deserves life or death for his crimes and then use that to judgement as a baseline for Paarthurnax. Rather, it comes down to whether you believe Paarthurnax can continue to keep his natural tendencies in check now that his primary purpose for doing so has been achieved. Just how much can you trust the junkie with access to heroin even if he has been sober for thirty years?

    • 393 posts
    December 17, 2015 4:29 PM EST

    I'm absolutely sure that if the Imperials or the Nords would sack Alinor, they would kill civillians as well, that's the way of war. Also, I suspect that they didn't kill them for nothing. The Thalmor is just like any other military faction, they are no more and no less evil, than any others.

    I didn't do Thieves Guild questline, so I didn't know about that. Still, he's a bastard. I used to want to kill him, but in the end I was quite satisfied with just punching him. Galmar himself is another story entirely, I would kill him without hesitation, he's much worse than his brother. But, unfortunately, I took the Stormcloak side in the war, so he is essential too(

    • 552 posts
    December 17, 2015 5:23 PM EST

    It's because Delphine was mean to me. The only reason we get forced to team up with them is because the Blade's knowledge and the Dragonborn's power combined is the only way to find and kill Alduin.

    Why is she telling me to kill dragons that helped us? Isn't the Dragonborn the leader of the Blades? And she isn't even telling, she's asking. Our job is only our job because it's forced upon us, we can't even side with the Greybeards and let Alduin eat the world.

    Paarthy was a domineering, tyrannical mass murderer. But after sitting on a mountain doing nothing but reflecting and meditating for who knows how long (you prob do), I think he has served his time. And he will continue to serve his time until the Dwemer come back as cyborg plasma rifle techno warriors and take over Nirn.

    And if Paarthy does start killing again, the Dragonborn could easily slay him. But right now I think the dragon flying over Riverwood is more of a priority...

    • 393 posts
    December 17, 2015 6:22 PM EST

    Actually, if the question is not whether Paarthurnax deserves to live, but whether the Dragonborn should kill him, I'd say that since we can't know the future, it's not right to kill him for what he didn't yet do, but only might do, no matter how likely he is to do it. I think everyone deserves a second chance, even a junkie.

    • 1460 posts
    December 17, 2015 6:44 PM EST

    You know, while I've only killed Paarthurnax once (and mind you, that was for a very power hungry character who liked killing Dragons) I don't consider him to be good in any way, shape or form. He doesn't really repent for his crimes in any way, just runs away from them, hiding up on the Throat of the World, essentially doing nothing. 

    He doesn't teach many people the Way of the Voice, that's left to the Greybeards, and the few he's taught weren't exactly recent (he had said that nobody had visited him in centuries was it, maybe just decades.). And considering the last person that the Greybeards taught (besides the DB) was Ulfirc, and whether you consider him to be right or wrong, he did kind of start a massive war that may have doomed thousands, if not millions of people (especially looking forward to any other conflicts which may spring up because of it). So that wouldn't exactly be considered repenting for crimes.

    So...really while he isn't particularly the most evil fella around anymore. He can't exactly be considered good either. I'd probably say that a Good-alinged character (Not Lawful Good...they'd save anyone) would probably be more likely to kill him.

    • 1580 posts
    December 17, 2015 10:23 PM EST

    I think you and the majority here are anthropomorphising Paarthurnax without taking into account his nature but I respect your right and those of others to do this.

    While we may not know the future we know one potential future: this particular junkie could massacre an entire town before the Dragonborn would arrive, not just ruin his own life by injecting heroin.

    We are given a black and white choice for something which has many shades of grey. I enjoy acknowledging those shades.

    • 1580 posts
    December 17, 2015 10:33 PM EST

    If you think it's okay to kill Paarthurnax, so do me a favor and kill Runil, the priest of Arkay in Falkreath, because he was once a Thalmor Battlemage in the Great War and killed many people with his magic. If you think Paarthurnax deserves to die for his crimes, so does Runil, am I right?

    Don't poke the bear. Paarthurnax is not a human being, it is a dragon. It's not about war crimes, or whether or not someone can atone for their mistakes or any other discussion of the human condition. We don't really have an equivalent in the real world but the closest thing could be a bear or tiger with a taste for human flesh. Normally once such a creature is considered a man-eater it has to be killed because the risk of it happening again is too great.

    No matter how much time and effort is put into keeping the bear at a distance from civilisation - even tranquilising and relocating the bear once it strays too close - as soon as said bear eats a human being it will be shot on sight. There is simply too much at stake. If that bear was sapient and could talk and even wax philosophical about it's life, it doesn't stop it being a man eating bear, no matter how cuddly it looks.  

    • 10 posts
    December 17, 2015 10:49 PM EST

    hmm.. since I found the Tamriel Vault back in July... I've poked around alot and seen that everyone seems to be able to speak both freely and (sometimes) sensibly without catching a crapton of Crap. So I'll put my own bits in here:

    1. I've never done the Thieves Guild or The Dark Brotherhood. and there are tons of Sidequests i've never done. normally i just get on and play and screw around... like so many of us. and I've never actually sided with the dawnguard either. I'm workin on a character build for that though.

    and there are also a TON of sidequests i've never done. I'm makin a Werewolf that i'm gonna use to Challenge Koorstag. i think that's how his name is spelled.

    but yeah.. theres a lot I ain't done.

    • 1580 posts
    December 17, 2015 11:02 PM EST

    It's because Delphine was mean to me.

    At least you admit it Vlad  and I won't argue, just urge you to consider the following:

    • We cannot consider Paarthurnax as having served his time because he is a dragon, immortal, and as such time has little meaning for him. While a few thousand years is a long time for us we do not know how such a being would view that passage of time. In short, it is alien to us.
    • The Blades have one goal, to protect the Dragonborn Emperor. Why? Is it because he is worthy of being protected by right of blood? Or because the life of a Dragonborn Emperor is essential to keeping the Dragonfires lit and the hordes of Oblivion from invading and as such must be protected at all costs? I propose this is the root of that particular tradition. Indeed, there is evidence that the Blades weren't happy with Tiber's decision to allow a dragon to live many centuries ago.
    • Even though the last dragonborn is not an emperor and the dragonfires are a thing of the past, the dragonborn is still the ultimate dragon slayer. If said dragonslayer refuses to slay dragons, how does that look to the men and women who would follow him into battle?
    • If Paarthy does start killing again then that blood is on the pc's hands for not making the hard decision when it counted.
    • 1580 posts
    December 17, 2015 11:15 PM EST

    Mirric and Thorien that's some interesting stuff right there. Wouln't mind seeing it elaborated on.

  • December 17, 2015 11:24 PM EST

    Don't poke the bear. Paarthurnax is not a human being, it is a dragon.

    By Azura! By Azura! By Azura! Another player who is sensible about Paarthurnax?!

  • December 17, 2015 11:28 PM EST

    And if Paarthy does start killing again, the Dragonborn could easily slay him.

    Assuming the Dragonborn is around when Paarthurnax is driven to dominate flesh ants again, and Paarthurnax is, after all, effectively immortal. Your Dragonborn is not.

    Regardless, Bethesda will probably render Paarthurnax's fate ambiguous... because brilliant story telling .

    • 1580 posts
    December 17, 2015 11:32 PM EST

    • 552 posts
    December 17, 2015 11:34 PM EST

    Well, other dragons don't seem to stop respawning. What's the harm of leaving one dragon that's docile (for now/forever) on top of the tallest mountain on the continent? Are the unlimited dragons just so we can get all the shouts?

    The dragonborn probably kills all dragons in canon.

  • December 17, 2015 11:40 PM EST

    My Dragonborn killed Paarthurnax for a comparable reason.

    Paarthurnax is a Dragon. The Dragonborn is a dragon slayer with a dragon's will to power and a mortal's sense of self-preservation. Paarthurnax died as a Dovah and died well.

    • 100 posts
    December 18, 2015 12:18 AM EST
    Have not fought Miraak yet. Multiple saves right before that fight, but never been to the summit of apocrypha. Don't know if I ever will xO
    • 393 posts
    December 18, 2015 3:57 AM EST

    Well, I guess, the anthropomorphising can't be completely avoided in this case, because, evil nature and all, Paarthurnax is sentient and hes free will, like humans and unlike bears and sabre cats. He can think and make decisions, it's a fact.

    Also, to be honest, I think that humans have just the same evil nature, maybe not that strong, but still. There's a lot of people who would happily go and slaughter their neighbors, their boss and everyone they dislike, the only thing that stops them is that they don't want to go to jail for that. And I'm not talking about sick psychopaths here, but about average normal people.

    If those were dragons, I really doubt they would sit on a mountain and meditate like Paarthurnax, they most likely would fly and wreak havoc in villages just for fun.

    By the way, the Dragonborn has a soul of a dragon, probably with all that entails, and they can go and slaughter people just like a dragon, so does that mean that they should commit suicide right after killing Paarthurnax, just to be safe?)))

    • 393 posts
    December 18, 2015 4:16 AM EST

    As strange as it seems, Delphine being mean never annoyed me much) Probably because in the case of my character it's perfectly logical for her to be mean to him. Actually, if that would be the real life, she'd probably try to kill him on sight, for his appearance just screams "Thalmor", even when he's without his uniform, lol, and Delphine is paranoid, which is also logical after all what she'd been through. In fact, that goes for any character, I think, everyone would be mean, if they were in Delphine's place.

    • 393 posts
    December 18, 2015 5:19 AM EST

    Well, I was pondering the possible options of the LDB's afterlife, and the possibility of Hermaeus Mora taking their soul to himself seems quite likely to me, though in case of a Nord Dragonborn (who would probably end up in Sovngarde), an Altmer Auriel-worshipper (like my Thalmor guy) or a worshipper of some other Deadric Prince, though I totally can imagine HM finding a way to snatch even those to his Apocrypha, since, from those pieces of Lore I've read about him, I got an impression that he is interested in Dragonborns for some reason, and I guess he'd happily take their souls to himself.

    And though I think my Thalmor character wouldn't like that, my another one, a Nord witch who loves all kinds of magic including necromancy would happily spend the eternity of her afterlife in Apocrypha, it's much cooler than a boring place like Sovngarde with a crowd of noisy drunken warriors and no books at all)))

    • 168 posts
    December 18, 2015 10:45 AM EST

    Okay, so let me see if I understood. The reason Paarthurnax must die is because he is a dragon and dragons have inborn nature to dominate. So following your own logic, Odahviing and Durnehviir, two dragons that respect you and fight by your side whenever you need them, must die for the same reason.

    So, if I'm roleplaying a Thalmor Slayer, I must kill Runil because although he was a Thalmor, he could be using his position as a priest of Arkay as an excuse to spy for the Dominion. So I can't let him live because the risk of he being a Thalmor spy is too great.

    Don't get me wrong but as I said before, my lawful/neutral/chaotic Dragonborns live by a code: If one doesn't harm innocents, then it's not my problem.

    • 1580 posts
    December 18, 2015 1:36 PM EST

    I see your sarcasm and raise you some of my own:

    No you haven't understood. I suggest you re-read what I wrote until it sinks in: You cannot compare a human or elf with a dragon. Your moral code is commendable and works perfectly fine for humans and elves but cannot extend to dragons.

    • 273 posts
    December 18, 2015 2:06 PM EST

    I see, I see, just to clarify it's Karstaag ;P

    You're gonna have to make that character VERY powerful to defeat him, he's stronger than even the Ebony Warrior (By some accounts).

    • 273 posts
    December 18, 2015 2:10 PM EST

    Dayum

    You should do it, it's one hell of a fight!