[blockquote][b][url=/profile/PaulEngland]Paul England[/url] said:[/b]

So, what do we know about the giants?  I've seen a lot of the stuff available on UESP, but I'm wondering if anyone has any crazy theories or interesting ideas.  

I'm tossing around a lore-ish build that I am calling tentatively "Something something Giants".  (It's an excuse for me to play another light-armor-wearing, 2-handed-weapon-wielding barbarian type, really.)  The giants in-game often frustrated me because there was so little you could do with them, and the game seems to barely mention them.  There are too few hostile giants to make giant-hunting an entertaining career choice, so you end up killing them to work up your skills or to make you feel like a big man or just because YOU CAN'T GROUND ME STEVE YOU'RE NOT MY REAL DAD

I'm saying that my usual barbarian brutes would want to *fight* giants, but the game doesn't give you much reason to.  So I hit upon the idea of a barbarian brute who has some sort of *affinity* for giants instead - maybe a trace of Atmoran ancestry?  Maybe a distant giant in the gene pool?  

I mean, they're the ultimate barbarians, right?  Nomadic, living in the open wilderness, hunting & herding.  Big f***-off weapons, light armor.  Surprisingly fast *and* hit like a truck.  Gnarly scars/tattoos and tribal paint patterns.  Beards!  

There seems to be some rudimentary symbolism among giants, but perhaps not any developed religion.  So some Atmoran type who takes after them might similarly scorn the gods.  But that carving into flesh and tusk, the careful markings (but not incisions) on stone - speaks to me of a primitive enchanting.  So our barb might well go that route, too, smithing huge weapons and then inscribing them with the runes of power.  

Honestly not sure if this is the right place for this sort of musing.  I haven't got anything developed enough for even the workshop, I think, so here we are - noodling on lore (monkey and otherwise) about giants.  

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I don't know a whole lot about them myself (an area I've still got to work on to be honest) but here goes.

First of all the whole "giant in the bloodline" is something that actually already exists in Tamrielic lore I believe. In ESO you meet a woman called Lyris Titanborn, who is as you could guess Titanborn and is suposedly half man, half giant or something. But I'm not gonna argue with a woman twice my size to discuss the validity of it, I'm not that stupid.

Other than that there is a story, I know I've read it in a text before but I can't remember the source. I do know hat Shoddycast made a video on the story in one of their Skyrim lore storyteller videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RusxZUjdHbY&list=PL7pGJQV-jlzDglS_b_OM8vi21wm_XrF8v&index=9.

Anyway, to summarize it the belief is that Giants and Nords were both born atop the Throat of the world but changed over time as a consequence of different environments... I think, this is all from memory. You're probably better off watching the video.

I'll see what else I can dig up.

Ok Paul so I found the text I mentioned, the one about giants being nords or what not. It's "the seven fights of Aldudagga", specifically the sixth fight: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-six-911th-cow.

It's an old nord folkstory about a conflict between Alduin and Mehrunes Dagon, who according to earlier chapters of this text was cursed and made a daedra by Alduin as a punishment for annoying him (don't fuck with dragons am I right?). Anyway it describes an origin myth for the giants.

According to this text, the giants and proto-nords were once a single race that were divided by a conflict during which the now giants fled into the mountains. By the time the conflict ended and the world was healing again, the giants returned from the mountains in a form similar to how we know them today.

Hope this helps.

Great stuff both of you, thanks!  

Teineeva, I appreciate your finding that link to the 7 Fights text.  I had read that before but forgot that it contained references to giants, so that's perfect.  The video was a good find; I hadn't seen that before.  

Singer, you're getting at an interesting concept - that the Redguards are more 'realistic', whereas Nords are perhaps prone to flights of fancy.  I think it fits perfectly (though granted, I know extremely little about Redguard lore).  I can totally picture a Nord far-farer tossing back drinks in some Hammerfell bar, claiming he's the son of a son of a son of a giant, and all the locals just rolling their eyes - or maybe even shifting around uncomfortably ("How crazy *is* this guy?").  It somehow seems to fit that the Redguards would tend to look at the world in terms of whether they can kill their problems or not (given their sword cults and propensity for violent expansion).  Of course, Nords expanded violently too, but never seem to have developed *devotion* to a particular form of warfare, internalizing it and making it part of their souls as the Redguards do.  

Seems like I´m late for the party and some lizards and Yoku singers already got you sorted out, Paul. Nice :)

And Redguard Nord comparison. Nice! You know, they´re not so different, Redguards and Nords. They both are honorbound, but the difference between them is that Nords are about Glory and Redguards about Duty. In terms of "warfare" they are similar too, and I´m using the term loosely, because both are better at skirmishes and guerilla warfare. Look at the Redguards for example. They are the best swordsmen in Tamriel, all hands down. But how useful is your skill with a sword against shield wall of Imperial Legions, right? 

And your bar anecdote actually quite nailed. Nords do remember all their heroes, their ancestors and all that and like to keep boasting about it. All Redguards need is the Book of Circles written by Frandar Hunding. That´s what makes their swordsmanship an art. It´s like a Bible of sword for them. 

There was a book that mentioned few clashes between Redguards and Nords. Oh wait, I think it was older, Yoku most likely. That because of the similar prowess in combat, the Warrior´s Wave march was stopped to standstill near Skyrim. 

My guess is because Nords had giants on their sides... :)

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/KarverTheLorc]Karver the Lorc[/url] said:[/b]

My guess is because Nords had giants on their sides... :)

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Karve I think this is highly unlikely. All we know of the relationship between Nords and Giants is that at best it is a scenario where both sides sort of tolerate each other's presence. This relationship has however slightly evolved over the years. From the sources I can find, I've got information about the nord-giants relationship in three different eras:

2E-During the interregnum we get the picture that after a long and uneasy truce (I believe this truce is where the idea of sacrificing cows come from) the nords are coming around to the idea of simply getting rid of giants whenever they pose a problem, or at least this is the idea I get from Kyne's challenge.

We live in an uneasy truce with the giants of Skyrim. Some believe that they are our Atmoran ancestors, and the more backward villagers on the border with Wrothgar still breed cows specifically to paint with runes as offerings to these lumbering nomads. But the days of such superstition have passed in our circle; they are now seen by more forward-thinking Nords as a nuisance to tolerate.

Even if at this point the official opinion of the Pact seems to be: don't get your arses close to a giant's camp as fixing issues with giants is a real pain and we can't afford to lose men to them (as seen here, here and here). Apparently it has started to become a common thing to find dead or crippled soldiers outside of giant camps. I believe it shows that the nords are starting to have a clear lack of respect for the lumbering giants.

4E-During the events of Skyrim it becomes clear that under imperial law giants are protected by the Empire (keeping the jarls from sending hitsquads after them)unless a bounty is put on their head which usually occurs after they decide to wander out of their alloted space and into a nord's farm or something. The latter is something we learn from Aela when we meet her outside Whiterun, but the fact they are protected by the empire is less clear.

For that we'll have to look into a quest I believe was added by heartfire (do you believe it, there's lore in the "build a house" dlc?!) where if you want to get a place to settle in dawnstar under the rule of skald the fuckface (no bias here XD) he asks you to get rid of a specific giant near dawnstar who as we can find out from paperwork that is found near his camp is protected, most likely by imperial law (just take a look at the note) as I doubt Skald would go against Ulfric in this matter (that and the note just doesn't seem to be written by a Nord), even it looks like he's acting out of his own accord.

This protection by imperial law is quite a big turnaround from the 2E where the nords were starting to lose respect for the giants. I've got to wonder what happened here.

Merethic Era- This constant conflict between the giants and the Nords is deeply rooted in their history and legends as an example there's a passage in the Songs of the Return where a war between Ysgramor's five hundred and the giants is specifically mentioned. This passage describes how Ysgramor uses Wuuthraad to slay the king of the giants. While I don't know where that title came from as there's no evidence of such a hierarchy between giants in Skyrim, this could also mean that the nords have simply cut down all forms of organization among the giants, and as such even the giants don't know they used to have a king.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/PaulEngland]Paul England[/url] said:[/b]

Great stuff both of you, thanks!  

Teineeva, I appreciate your finding that link to the 7 Fights text.  I had read that before but forgot that it contained references to giants, so that's perfect.  The video was a good find; I hadn't seen that before.  

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Let me guess you read it when looking into your totem builds? I think I originally read them while investigating my own build on the totems. I hope the slab of text above this is of some use to you. I'll be honest I'm seriously starting to wonder why the empire would start protecting the giants... What happened between ESO and Skyrim to warrant such an action?

Wasn't that particular Song of the Return added in ESO?  Or was it something that was just cut from Skyrim?  Either way, yeah, there seems to have been some sort of conflict from way back in Ysgramor's time.  

I guess the exaggeration could go in several directions, though.  Was this "king of the giants" really the king of all giants, or was he more like a quarrelsome giant-chief?  

I remember a Kirkbride sketch that appears to show a giant:

I mean, who knows what it means, but I'm assuming Talos is the hovering guy, and the "King of Atmora" is the big'un.  Looks a litle more technologically sophisticated than the giants we see in Skyrim, but otherwise rather similar - and note the swirling decorations on the sword.  

Now, I'm a Kirkbride fan, so I'm going to run with this image (as well as the Seven Fights text).  Seems to reflect the idea that Atmorans were giants ... although, my Atmoran history isn't so good; was the place "frozen" already by the Second Era?