The Story Corner » Discussions

Writers Discuss - Fight Scenes (#9)

• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Always glad to provide clarification, Okan. I told you my response would be jumbled. I got very excited by the topic, which can make me sloppy. This should clear up what I prefer. 

  Do we want a play by play, or do we need to switch from a more detailed to a more general picture to save time or narrative space

  What I use depends on what the context of the scene is. I just don't call it exactly what you call it. Thank you for providing those terms, by the way, awesome.  I've done all four that you mentioned. Crystal-Like-Law was a combination of all four methods, but that was a huge scene that spanned several days with thousands of participants.  Haha, could not do a blow-by-blow on that one!

  When "took them down" become the crux of every fight scene, then we, I think, have a problem. Like you said, it's a matter of knowing when and where it fits in the narrative. That was implied, I think, when I said. "save in passing.". But again, I probably wasn't clear.

  To each his own and I can totally see how when done poorly, it wouldn't be a fun read at all. Tom Clancy rings a bell on this taken to the extreme. Detailed everything, but damn, even I could operate a nuclear submarine when I finished Hunt for Red October. Me, personally? I happen to like knowing and incorporating how things work into a fight scene. But I think that boils down to what people like reading and that is so subjective. I didn't say become an expert or turn the fight into a manual, I said... 

  You don't have to be an expert in weaponry, but knowing how basic stuff works, will aid with believability. 

  I didn't see your initial response until after mine was posted, so I'm not sure if you think what I wrote was a direct response to yours? It wasn't.  I appreciate the four terms, it really does condense things well, and I liked your response very much. Would have saved me much writing time if I had seen it earlier. But I saw the topic and was like "yay" I like fight scenes and write them a lot, and people seem to like the way I write them, so let me take some time and share how I approach them in case people are stuck on them. Might help, and if it doesn't, at least they see the care that I personally take into their construction. 

  

   

   

  Always glad to provide clarification, Okan. I told you my response would be jumbled. I got very excited by the topic, which can make me sloppy. This should clear up what I prefer. 

  Do we want a play by play, or do we need to switch from a more detailed to a more general picture to save time or narrative space

  What I use depends on what the context of the scene is. I just don't call it exactly what you call it. Thank you for providing those terms, by the way, awesome.  I've done all four that you mentioned. Crystal-Like-Law was a combination of all four methods, but that was a huge scene that spanned several days with thousands of participants.  Haha, could not do a blow-by-blow on that one!

  When "took them down" become the crux of every fight scene, then we, I think, have a problem. Like you said, it's a matter of knowing when and where it fits in the narrative. That was implied, I think, when I said. "save in passing.". But again, I probably wasn't clear.

  To each his own and I can totally see how when done poorly, it wouldn't be a fun read at all. Tom Clancy rings a bell on this taken to the extreme. Detailed everything, but damn, even I could operate a nuclear submarine when I finished Hunt for Red October. Me, personally? I happen to like knowing and incorporating how things work into a fight scene. But I think that boils down to what people like reading and that is so subjective. I didn't say become an expert or turn the fight into a manual, I said... 

  You don't have to be an expert in weaponry, but knowing how basic stuff works, will aid with believability. 

  I didn't see your initial response until after mine was posted, so I'm not sure if you think what I wrote was a direct response to yours? It wasn't.  I appreciate the four terms, it really does condense things well, and I liked your response very much. Would have saved me much writing time if I had seen it earlier. But I saw the topic and was like "yay" I like fight scenes and write them a lot, and people seem to like the way I write them, so let me take some time and share how I approach them in case people are stuck on them. Might help, and if it doesn't, at least they see the care that I personally take into their construction. 

  

   

   

• The Wing

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  This is all really good. In the few battle scenes I've attempted, I was guilty of the 'blow by blow' method. I'll certainly bookmark this for future reference! 

  This is all really good. In the few battle scenes I've attempted, I was guilty of the 'blow by blow' method. I'll certainly bookmark this for future reference! 

• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Don't be guilty.    The blow by blow method isn't bad per se. It just needs to be handled well or it can become monotonous as was stated above. "Employ with discretion" doesn't mean never use. It can actually be extremely effective depending on the circumstances. IMO, this is the method that I think could possibly use some background knowledge or you can choose to break it up by focusing on emotions, dialogue, other things. I do use it, but it's not all I use. Blow by blow usually morphs into Hard Hits/Killing Blows, to use these better terms, and I don't think it's wrong to switch out for the sake of faster pacing. 

  I have a nearly blow by blow (I don't do every blow, they skip ahead an hour, but a good chunk of it would be considered by some blow by blow) spar where my hero is thinking, as he strikes, about how this spar would have been over far quicker if he had a different weapon and he was grumbling about how hungry he was. It added humor. 

  Don't be guilty.    The blow by blow method isn't bad per se. It just needs to be handled well or it can become monotonous as was stated above. "Employ with discretion" doesn't mean never use. It can actually be extremely effective depending on the circumstances. IMO, this is the method that I think could possibly use some background knowledge or you can choose to break it up by focusing on emotions, dialogue, other things. I do use it, but it's not all I use. Blow by blow usually morphs into Hard Hits/Killing Blows, to use these better terms, and I don't think it's wrong to switch out for the sake of faster pacing. 

  I have a nearly blow by blow (I don't do every blow, they skip ahead an hour, but a good chunk of it would be considered by some blow by blow) spar where my hero is thinking, as he strikes, about how this spar would have been over far quicker if he had a different weapon and he was grumbling about how hungry he was. It added humor. 

• Sildriel

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  This was a topic I didn't expect. Mind you, I don't expect a lot of topics that come up here, but I'm pleasantly surprised for all of them. 

  Except this one. I took this topic with a little trepidation, more so than I do with our previous discussions, because I only know how to answer a half of the questions presented. I know quite well what makes a bad fight scene, and what I despise about them. But making a good one... that's a little out of my experience.

  I've written a few, all in fanfictions. I plan to add fight scenes in my novel, but how and when is neither here nor there. But I could not tell you if they were good or not. I enjoyed writing them, but I don't know the full effect that it presented to the readers.

  Okan made several good categories for the different "types" of fight scenes, and Lissette made a good point about whether or not the fight is fitting or even needed. I think all of the writers and readers can agree that there must be a purpose of the fight; otherwise, it's bird poop splattered on your windshield of a story (my analogies are getting too creative).  But, I think I'll add my own category of fight scenes:

  Physical Battles:

  Mass Battle: These fights are the gathering of hundreds -- even thousands -- to fight against a massive cause that will most likely change the fate of the world. Like the battle at Gondor in Lord of the Rings, if the heroes fail, the opposing side will most likely be one huge step closer to victory -- or already achieve it. These battles are usually hard-hitting, chaotic clashes of steel, with man barely deciphering who is friend or foe as he swings around his sword in sheer panic. They're massive, they're brutal, and they could be the most "important" battle in the story, as its victor remains victor forever (or just a very long time), and the book ends.

  Medium Battles: Not small, but not chaotically large, these battles usually hold the fate of a large village or city. Like the battle at Whiterun, whether it's being stormed by Stormcloaks, or held back by the defenses of the guards and Imperials. They bring about the plot to a sharp conflict, and who so ever is the winner will have an effect on the plot ahead. They aren't really "world-shattering" battles, but they do have a good amount of importance.

  Tiny Clashes: Perhaps involving a bandit raid, or the ambush of a slew of Thalmor, tiny clashes' main purpose is to add tension, as well as a little character development or such. In small interval or large, they can bring about an effect, but not as strong or impacting as the medium or massive battles.

  Fist-bumps: The brawling of two characters, mainly. Perhaps it's two enemies facing off in a heat of rage, or two friends clashing heads over a love interest. These can sometimes be very impacting, or at least feel personal to the reader, especially if it's the main character versus his fellow friend. They usually carve the road for character and plot development. I usually enjoy using them to fill in the "empty chapters" of a story with nothing to do.

  There are also:

  Verbal Debates: This is pretty self-explanatory. Plus, it can bring about some philosophical thoughts to the story.

  Psychological Struggles: A mental battle with oneself.  

  Divine Battles: A battle (be it a debate, rebellion, or physical battle) of God or another celestial being

  Political Debates

  and so on. There's so many fights to use, to choose from, and they all don't have to be physical. I love mental battles, and I've just started getting deeper into political debates; they can really bring depth to a story when the lore is political.

  I can't really answer how to make a "good fight scene", without answering how to make a bad one.

  To make a bad one, you must suck dry all of the tension in a battle, and then describe it as if you were a real fortune teller who knows everything that's going to happen before it happens. Here's an example:

  "Timmy swung his fist at John, who buckled under the blow and went crashing into the floor. He scrambled up just to dodge a kick from Timmy, who released a growl of anger at his opponent. He swung again.

  But this time, John was ready."

  I set the last sentence both in bold and italics to express my deep loathing  of that phrase. "But this time, ___ was ready", is the most pathetic, tension-drying phrase you could ever use in the history of writing. Why? Because it explains that John escaped safely from Timmy's next blow. It cheats and kills any possibility of a plot twist. I don't know what happens to Timmy in the next attack. Does he attack? Dodge? Die? I want to question what's happening. And that sentence stifles the flow of questions coming from me when I read of this battle. It kills the joy, it kills the tension, and it kills my love of the writer. 
  

  Yes, my loathing of it is on the extreme. But it's because I've seen so many good books fall short because of that different version of "But this time, _______ was ready". The versions don't have to be related to fights. They can be there for a good mystery, and then the writer just blatantly gives you the most obvious clue about the killer that smothers the mystery of the murderer in an instance. You now know who it is! All the time you took plotting with the detective is now gone. It's just another version of revealing what the writer seemed to painstakingly keep mysterious for the reader. It feels like the reader is cheated.

  But I'm rambling. To make a good fight scene, you must keep the reader in suspense. It doesn't mean keep him completely in the dark; if you know that the main character is going to win the battle, there's no point in hiding that fact. Find other ways to excite the reader. Make them wonder: "Who's going to live? Is the main character going to be surprised? Or it just going to be that really awesome massacre that gives me chills?" 

  I could go longer, but school beckons to me. I wish I could answer the rest of the questions, but duty calls. 

  This was a topic I didn't expect. Mind you, I don't expect a lot of topics that come up here, but I'm pleasantly surprised for all of them. 

  Except this one. I took this topic with a little trepidation, more so than I do with our previous discussions, because I only know how to answer a half of the questions presented. I know quite well what makes a bad fight scene, and what I despise about them. But making a good one... that's a little out of my experience.

  I've written a few, all in fanfictions. I plan to add fight scenes in my novel, but how and when is neither here nor there. But I could not tell you if they were good or not. I enjoyed writing them, but I don't know the full effect that it presented to the readers.

  Okan made several good categories for the different "types" of fight scenes, and Lissette made a good point about whether or not the fight is fitting or even needed. I think all of the writers and readers can agree that there must be a purpose of the fight; otherwise, it's bird poop splattered on your windshield of a story (my analogies are getting too creative).  But, I think I'll add my own category of fight scenes:

  Physical Battles:

  Mass Battle: These fights are the gathering of hundreds -- even thousands -- to fight against a massive cause that will most likely change the fate of the world. Like the battle at Gondor in Lord of the Rings, if the heroes fail, the opposing side will most likely be one huge step closer to victory -- or already achieve it. These battles are usually hard-hitting, chaotic clashes of steel, with man barely deciphering who is friend or foe as he swings around his sword in sheer panic. They're massive, they're brutal, and they could be the most "important" battle in the story, as its victor remains victor forever (or just a very long time), and the book ends.

  Medium Battles: Not small, but not chaotically large, these battles usually hold the fate of a large village or city. Like the battle at Whiterun, whether it's being stormed by Stormcloaks, or held back by the defenses of the guards and Imperials. They bring about the plot to a sharp conflict, and who so ever is the winner will have an effect on the plot ahead. They aren't really "world-shattering" battles, but they do have a good amount of importance.

  Tiny Clashes: Perhaps involving a bandit raid, or the ambush of a slew of Thalmor, tiny clashes' main purpose is to add tension, as well as a little character development or such. In small interval or large, they can bring about an effect, but not as strong or impacting as the medium or massive battles.

  Fist-bumps: The brawling of two characters, mainly. Perhaps it's two enemies facing off in a heat of rage, or two friends clashing heads over a love interest. These can sometimes be very impacting, or at least feel personal to the reader, especially if it's the main character versus his fellow friend. They usually carve the road for character and plot development. I usually enjoy using them to fill in the "empty chapters" of a story with nothing to do.

  There are also:

  Verbal Debates: This is pretty self-explanatory. Plus, it can bring about some philosophical thoughts to the story.

  Psychological Struggles: A mental battle with oneself.  

  Divine Battles: A battle (be it a debate, rebellion, or physical battle) of God or another celestial being

  Political Debates

  and so on. There's so many fights to use, to choose from, and they all don't have to be physical. I love mental battles, and I've just started getting deeper into political debates; they can really bring depth to a story when the lore is political.

  I can't really answer how to make a "good fight scene", without answering how to make a bad one.

  To make a bad one, you must suck dry all of the tension in a battle, and then describe it as if you were a real fortune teller who knows everything that's going to happen before it happens. Here's an example:

  "Timmy swung his fist at John, who buckled under the blow and went crashing into the floor. He scrambled up just to dodge a kick from Timmy, who released a growl of anger at his opponent. He swung again.

  But this time, John was ready."

  I set the last sentence both in bold and italics to express my deep loathing  of that phrase. "But this time, ___ was ready", is the most pathetic, tension-drying phrase you could ever use in the history of writing. Why? Because it explains that John escaped safely from Timmy's next blow. It cheats and kills any possibility of a plot twist. I don't know what happens to Timmy in the next attack. Does he attack? Dodge? Die? I want to question what's happening. And that sentence stifles the flow of questions coming from me when I read of this battle. It kills the joy, it kills the tension, and it kills my love of the writer. 
  

  Yes, my loathing of it is on the extreme. But it's because I've seen so many good books fall short because of that different version of "But this time, _______ was ready". The versions don't have to be related to fights. They can be there for a good mystery, and then the writer just blatantly gives you the most obvious clue about the killer that smothers the mystery of the murderer in an instance. You now know who it is! All the time you took plotting with the detective is now gone. It's just another version of revealing what the writer seemed to painstakingly keep mysterious for the reader. It feels like the reader is cheated.

  But I'm rambling. To make a good fight scene, you must keep the reader in suspense. It doesn't mean keep him completely in the dark; if you know that the main character is going to win the battle, there's no point in hiding that fact. Find other ways to excite the reader. Make them wonder: "Who's going to live? Is the main character going to be surprised? Or it just going to be that really awesome massacre that gives me chills?" 

  I could go longer, but school beckons to me. I wish I could answer the rest of the questions, but duty calls. 

• The Long-Chapper

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Verbal Debates: This is pretty self-explanatory. Plus, it can bring about some philosophical thoughts to the story.

  Psychological Struggles: A mental battle with oneself.  

  Divine Battles: A battle (be it a debate, rebellion, or physical battle) of God or another celestial being

  Political Debates

  and so on. There's so many fights to use, to choose from, and they all don't have to be physical. I love mental battles, and I've just started getting deeper into political debates; they can really bring depth to a story when the lore is political.

  Love this section and had not thought of writing on it when I constructed my response, though dang, I put these in my story too! Thank you. 

  Verbal Debates: This is pretty self-explanatory. Plus, it can bring about some philosophical thoughts to the story.

  Psychological Struggles: A mental battle with oneself.  

  Divine Battles: A battle (be it a debate, rebellion, or physical battle) of God or another celestial being

  Political Debates

  and so on. There's so many fights to use, to choose from, and they all don't have to be physical. I love mental battles, and I've just started getting deeper into political debates; they can really bring depth to a story when the lore is political.

  Love this section and had not thought of writing on it when I constructed my response, though dang, I put these in my story too! Thank you. 

• Raid

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Have you ever done something along the lines of "Writers Discuss - Why do we write?" That's what always fascinates me about writing.

  Have you ever done something along the lines of "Writers Discuss - Why do we write?" That's what always fascinates me about writing.
• Okan-Zeeus

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Thanks for the reply! This clears stuff up. I didn't think you were responding to me. Your post seemed too disconnected from  mine. Either way, you bring up some good points.

  "I happen to like knowing and incorporating how things work into a fight scene.But I think that boils down to what people like reading and that is so subjective."

  Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

  Also...

  "...but damn, even I could operate a nuclear submarine when I finished Hunt for Red October."

  XD

  Thanks for the reply! This clears stuff up. I didn't think you were responding to me. Your post seemed too disconnected from  mine. Either way, you bring up some good points.

  "I happen to like knowing and incorporating how things work into a fight scene.But I think that boils down to what people like reading and that is so subjective."

  Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

  Also...

  "...but damn, even I could operate a nuclear submarine when I finished Hunt for Red October."

  XD

• Idesto

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  I don't know!

  I often find these discussions hard to respond to because I don't do a lot of planning when I write. I probably should though! Shinbira's story is inspired by gameplay, then I sit down and write it. I guess I'm bigger on the practical and less on the theory. 

  Usually once I get started I'm off.  I love the fight scenes I've written, probably some of my most enjoyable chapters. Shinbira loves a good fight!

  The ones that stick in my mind I think are blow-by-blow. My first person present tense style lends itself to that I think: its up close and personal. I love getting Shin all riled up then releasing his rage. Killing Stormcloaks in Helgen, and the Whiterun dragon spring to mind. 

  Bad fights? Ones that are too analytical and cold, I guess. A fight has to passionate and hot, it carries a very real risk of death. For me, anyway. 

  Faviuetue fights? In film The battle on the ice planet Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back, and Minas Tirith in The Return of the King. Both massively large scale and with tactical fluctuations but also little moments of personal intimacy, especially thexlatter. In literature Lee Scoresby's Alamo type last stand from Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials stands out. Beautifully written, moving, intimate but brutal. 

  I don't know!

  I often find these discussions hard to respond to because I don't do a lot of planning when I write. I probably should though! Shinbira's story is inspired by gameplay, then I sit down and write it. I guess I'm bigger on the practical and less on the theory. 

  Usually once I get started I'm off.  I love the fight scenes I've written, probably some of my most enjoyable chapters. Shinbira loves a good fight!

  The ones that stick in my mind I think are blow-by-blow. My first person present tense style lends itself to that I think: its up close and personal. I love getting Shin all riled up then releasing his rage. Killing Stormcloaks in Helgen, and the Whiterun dragon spring to mind. 

  Bad fights? Ones that are too analytical and cold, I guess. A fight has to passionate and hot, it carries a very real risk of death. For me, anyway. 

  Faviuetue fights? In film The battle on the ice planet Hoth in The Empire Strikes Back, and Minas Tirith in The Return of the King. Both massively large scale and with tactical fluctuations but also little moments of personal intimacy, especially thexlatter. In literature Lee Scoresby's Alamo type last stand from Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials stands out. Beautifully written, moving, intimate but brutal. 

• Sildriel

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Aw, awesome! Thank you for liking it!

  Aw, awesome! Thank you for liking it!

• Sildriel

  

  Member
   

  August 20, 2015

  Here's another suggestion:

  Delicate world-views. Worldviews that you have; do you put them in your story? Do you think that political views (modern political views) have a place in stories?

  Here's another suggestion:

  Delicate world-views. Worldviews that you have; do you put them in your story? Do you think that political views (modern political views) have a place in stories?