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Writers Discuss - Villains (#3)

  • Member
    July 8, 2015

    Writers Discuss

    Topic #3 - Villains

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    This week's discussion is on Villains. I’ve got questions. You’ve probably got answers. Have at it:

     

    What is a villain?

    What makes a good villain?

    What kinds of villains are there? 
    (i.e. sympathetic villains versus force-of-nature villains)

    What is an antihero?

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    If you have any suggestions for future topics, by the way, include them in the comments section!

  • Member
    July 8, 2015

    What is a villain?

    There’s two sides to everything and usually everyone as well. Some people see goblins as chaotic but the true creature dedicated to chaos is man. Where one man posses the power to do such great works of good, that same man has the potential and will to commit such unspeakable acts of evil. The true power of chaos.

    A Villain is one such man who don’t let moral issues blind him from his goals. There’s good characters and bad characters, but a bad one don’t mean he’s a villain. A villain goes that extra step of evilness. Morality and humanity are weaknesses to be exploited.

    What makes a good villain?

    We all have good and bad characters in our stories. In mine, U.O.T.W. I have two, and I’m not talking about Ulfric. The one I’m going to refer to is Greymane.

    What makes a good Villain. One of the criteria for me is the ability to back up your threats. Greymane fits this perfectly as he is a seasoned warrior. His werewolf form stands at 7 feet a whole foot taller than others. That’s the second thing a good villain needs. Presence. The ability to stand out from others. This don’t necessarily mean big in size. Stature can be from what the villain can do or knows.

    The Villain needs the will to do what others will not. They don’t overstep the mark, or cross the line in regards to overkill, they erase it. In my story Greymane will stop at nothing to  claim Aela’s wolf spirit for his mate. He even turns family against each other with promise of power. He corrupts those around him. I consider Greymane to be a true Villain due to his ability to corrupt others into doing great deeds of evil. Its this one trait where a Villain can make others act against their own will and do acts of immoral judgment which they wouldn’t do by themselves.

    What kinds of villains are there? (I.E. sympathetic villains versus force-of-nature villains)

    This is far simpler to answer. In my view there is only the one type of Villain. The others are forced from one point of pressure or another. Take a bandit. Some are failed merchants who had to turn to crime to survive. Some can’t help what they are, like feral werewolves. Are they truly evil if they can’t stop being what they have been turned into?

    Some are honest people twisted by power which they were never meant to wield.

    What is an antihero?

    An Anti hero is someone who does what is right alongside a regular hero. The difference is why. At one point in my story Sotek and Aela saves the emperor from assassination. Aela does it because she feels compelled to because it’s the right thing to do. She don’t believe in assassination and so she goes out of her way to save the emperor. This makes her the Heroine.

    Sotek supports her fully and works alongside her to save the Emperor. Hero... However he has an underlying reason for it. By saving the Emperor he trades off  the emperors life for something for himself. Antihero. He was in it not because it was right but because it furthered his own means.

    If you do what’s right for rewards or favors, or even because you have to, not by free choice then that makes you an anti hero. Stepping beyond the morality to do an ultimate good act is an Anti hero. Sotek willingly kills someone because the current law can’t bring them to justice. That night he hangs them from the neck. Was it legal no. It was justice as see by Sotek.

    That is an Anti Hero

  • Member
    July 9, 2015

    I've a suggestion for a future topic which fits alongside heroes and villains. Leaders. All our stories have them and there are all different kinds. Some good, some bad, a fair few inbetween.

  • Member
    July 9, 2015

    Aye, I like that discussion too.

    I also want to see people's opinions about what makes a good plot twist and a bad plot twist.

  • Member
    July 9, 2015

    Ah, another in-depth answer from me. Be prepared for way too much text.

    What is a villain?

        I see villains as a more diverse subject--a broader term--to be simplified in a few meager sentences. But I shall try my best. 

         Villains are not the hero's main adversary, or rather, they are not to be specified specifically as one. Villains can be ilkings of characters--minor people in a plot, with little influence on the plot as a whole (only the best are reserved those rights). Villains are beings with little regard for morals and principles. Their goal is their very life, their drive, their purpose to survive, thus they will balk at nothing to see it through. As Sotek said, humanity and morality are weaknesses to be exploited. They care little of such trivials.

    What makes a good villain?

    Aye, what makes a good cake? Such could be the same question, both with the same answers. Both require a combination of ingredients that appeal our taste buds, something blessedly old-fashioned or inexplicably new

    Old-fashioned villains can often be regarded as cliche--a word to balk at and curse. But there are benefits to cliche notions; some attitudes and actions are reasonably recognizable to the reader, offering a balance to a possibly too-new plot. Let's face it; sometimes I'd rather take a bite into a simple white-batter cake topped with chocolate frosting, rather than taste the twang of buttercream icing dabbled with chunks of oranges and flakes of white chocolate, all coating a triple-chocolate batter. The latter cake is good, aye, but sometimes there is so much in it, I become overwhelmed with the flavors and can only handle a bite or two. Whereas with the former cake, I can take bite after bite and still yearn for more. Such is the same for an old-fashioned villain, who would be a near-relief to see in a world of overly-complicated villains. You can sometimes yearn for that simple, cliche horror that a villain brings, such as the heartless destruction of the hero's village or torture of his friends. It's even more fun when the villain is not associated with the hero, and still brings an impact to the reader.

    Then there is the new villain. There are a lot of complex, sometimes over-complicated bad guys out in the world of literature, and writers are always striving to bring up new ideas--which is not a bad thing at all! I embrace different ideas. But what I yearn for is a villain that is just... new. Simple, but different. Like a cookie cake. It's new, it's different, and it's incoherently delicious! The villain has to be something that the reader does not expect, would never expect, and these are the villains that are sometimes the most remarkable. The writer has to place themselves in the shoes of their readers and ask themselves: "Who would the readers never suspect would be the villain?" or "What would be something the readers would never expect the villain to do or say?" These are the tokens every reader longs to find in a book--to find that one writer who really punched them in the face and said, "YOU NEVER SAW THAT COMING, DID YA'???" 

    What kinds of villains are there?

    Too many to name, really. There are the compassionate, the insane, the dark, the horrific, the old, the new, the romantic, the comedic. Sometimes the villains don't even follow their own descriptions, allowing that one moral action to touch him and the readers. They change, they remain, or they completely rebirth. There are new ones coming out each day, and as long as there are writers to be had, I don't think there will ever be a shortage on villains--be it well-written or not.

    What is an antihero?

    In all honestly, I completely forgot there were such things until you mentioned it. I was forced to look up the definition, as well as steal a little bit of information from Sotek (sorry!). An anti-hero could be considered the opposite of a hero, though not coherently good or bad. They are, perhaps, the physical manifestations of all human struggle or worries. Their purpose is to gather sympathy, and perhaps to act the most human out of all of the characters in a story. Examples could be Gollum from Lord of the Rings, Zuko from Avatar the Last Airbender, and so on. They are the ones shown first as villains (usually), but you can't be sure what they are once you encounter their personality. The are villains will morals and humanity; they are the opposites of both heroes and villains, perhaps the most easily-made dynamic characters in a story. And sometimes, anti-heroes can be the main character themselves.

  • July 9, 2015

    Wow, other members have answered the series of questions so well that I don't feel that I would contribute much in the way of any new insight. On the other hand, I shall still write a wall of text because that just seems to be my lot in life, so I will say a few things based on my personal experiences in writing, which, lol, isn't much. 

    Whereas the hero has the drive to sacrifice their own survival instinct to ensure the survival of others, the villain's survival instinct should be extremely strong, to the point of sacrificing others to ensure it. That's pretty broad, but a cool play on opposites. 

    I love creating opposition. I think opposition is important in a good story. It was my biggest problem with Frozen, yeah, Disney. I couldn't tell who the villain was and I was disappointed. I like Beauty and the Beast way better. Gaston was an asshole and fits right in with the point I'll make in the next section. Call me old-fashioned, but I like the traditional villain that makes life miserable for the hero. That being said, one of my favorite characters is Lucifer from Milton's Paradise Lost, though in my eyes, he's a tragic hero or an anti-hero rather than a villain proper. 

    Back to Gaston. I rather like making villains beautiful. The chief villain in my story is by the standards of his race, beautiful. He has the ideal facial structure, skin, build. On the other hand, the hero is given animal imagery and is portrayed as scarred and ugly by his racial standards and is often referred to as a mongrel or a dog. I like making beautiful people do despicable things and ugly people do noble things. I also enjoy it when people follow the villain because he/she is more physically appealing and offers his/her minions more immediate rewards than the hero does. 

    I like making the hero and the villain come from similar backgrounds and it's even cooler when they know each other personally. Betrayal is awesome, especially when it involves people they both mutually loved.  

    I like making the villain start off good and then watch them slip gradually. He could have just as much potential to be the hero as the hero does, except something doesn't quite work out that way. And I like what Sotek said about the anti-hero. Not quite sure if my hero is an anti-hero. He is law-abiding and offers terms in combat, even allowing his enemies to attack first. However, he's pretty Oblivion-bent on revenge. Granted, it's revenge against a vampire, which would be a creature that would be lawfully destroyed anyway, so he got lucky perhaps on that one and can keep his hero status. 

    Bleh, sorry, wasn't super focused for this one. I don't know why. Been tired this week and had to deal with my car, which needed some serious repairs. Like the proposed future topics as well. 

    Look forward to what other people have to say. 

  • Member
    July 9, 2015

    Granted, it's revenge against a vampire, which would be a creature that would be lawfully destroyed anyway,

    What the hell is this???

    What are you going to do next, bring Pitchforks and Burning Torches to my door on your next stop? The moment Aela meets Serana, she hates her. However when a Whelp backs her up saying that the Vampire needs to be killed Aela goes nuts at him. Aela don't hate Serana becasue she's a vampire. She has her own personal reasons not to like her.

    Aela understands from an early age that what you are don't determin whether you're evil, it's the choices you make and the paths you take.

  • July 9, 2015

    No, but, take into consideration that the hero of the story is, as of yet clueless as to what's going on at Jorrvaskr, which he is a member of. He also has a history of exterminating vampires and werewolves in the name of his religious Order because the ones he has encountered thus far, have indeed been evil. Bringing grey into his black and white world is part of his character development. 

    Sorry if I perhaps phrased it wrong. Told you, I didn't feel much like contributing. 

  • Member
    July 9, 2015

    I can see why Albee in your story portrayes vampires and werewolves as 'evil'. There is that stigma attached to them.

  • Member
    July 9, 2015

    1. Someone who does evil acts towards innocent people or steals something of great value or great power.

    2. They are always one step ahead of the hero.

    3. Ones who think they are doing humanity a favor, ones who enjoy being evil, and ones who want power.

    4. A hero that uses methods that are looked down upon in the public eye.