The Story Corner » Discussions

Writers Discuss - Villains (#3)

• Exuro

  

  Member
   

  July 15, 2015

  I like that, and it is much more accurate to modern day real life villains. A system (like a government, religious order, or corporation) may do horribly villainous things, but if you look at the individual people within it, I would say most are light-grey in the good/evil spectrum.

  I like that, and it is much more accurate to modern day real life villains. A system (like a government, religious order, or corporation) may do horribly villainous things, but if you look at the individual people within it, I would say most are light-grey in the good/evil spectrum.

• Teineeva

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  Well, I may be a bit late to the party, but I would still like to give my two cents about this:

  A villain is someone who takes action without taking in consideration all of the consequences, especially those affecting others. Another important thing needed for someone to be a villain are context and motives. One of the protagonists from my own texts for example (which I intended to be the hero originally) actually fulfills these prerequisites, yet she is no villain. Just like a good hero, a villain needs to be relatable and convincing. Yes, in my opinion a great villain is a villain who you can be persuaded to like, or in extreme cases be convinced he is the hero.  But most of all a good villain actually needs a good hero as well and vice-versa. The more ridiculous your villain the less serious you will take the hero and this works the other way around as well.

  For me there are as many kinds of different heroes as there are motives: one can be a villain by driving your ambitions to the fullest, by trying to protect your friends or by trying to serve mankind,and the list goes on and on.

  I'm a great fan of antiheroes, characters that surf the thin line between heroes and villains. For me an antihero is a person that can be percieved as both a hero and a villain by the same group of persons having the same context.  A good example is the well known and reputed Dohvakin. After all he does spend most of his time killing people, taking legislative, executive and judgemental powers in hand as he goes around the land. Yet he does so while helping the commonfolk who apprecate him for that. So is he a villain or a hero? He is neither, that's what an antihero is to my eyes: neither.

  Well, I may be a bit late to the party, but I would still like to give my two cents about this:

  A villain is someone who takes action without taking in consideration all of the consequences, especially those affecting others. Another important thing needed for someone to be a villain are context and motives. One of the protagonists from my own texts for example (which I intended to be the hero originally) actually fulfills these prerequisites, yet she is no villain. Just like a good hero, a villain needs to be relatable and convincing. Yes, in my opinion a great villain is a villain who you can be persuaded to like, or in extreme cases be convinced he is the hero.  But most of all a good villain actually needs a good hero as well and vice-versa. The more ridiculous your villain the less serious you will take the hero and this works the other way around as well.

  For me there are as many kinds of different heroes as there are motives: one can be a villain by driving your ambitions to the fullest, by trying to protect your friends or by trying to serve mankind,and the list goes on and on.

  I'm a great fan of antiheroes, characters that surf the thin line between heroes and villains. For me an antihero is a person that can be percieved as both a hero and a villain by the same group of persons having the same context.  A good example is the well known and reputed Dohvakin. After all he does spend most of his time killing people, taking legislative, executive and judgemental powers in hand as he goes around the land. Yet he does so while helping the commonfolk who apprecate him for that. So is he a villain or a hero? He is neither, that's what an antihero is to my eyes: neither.

• Idesto

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  It may be late but it's a good reply! Dovahkin as anti-hero: it fits doesn't it?  There's an ongoing series of these so you some catching up to do 

  It may be late but it's a good reply! Dovahkin as anti-hero: it fits doesn't it?  There's an ongoing series of these so you some catching up to do 

• Overhate

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  I'm no writer (yet) but let me ask you this philosophical question - is every antagonist a villain?

  Imagine this situation - two paladins clash. The first wants to eradicate all bad people, including women who cheat on their husbands and bartenders who put water in their wine. The second wants to stop the first, because he thinks he (the first) has gone too far. Neither of them is a villain, yet one is the antagonist, the other the protagonist.

  Not to mention that depending on the point of view of the storyteller, each one of them can be the protagonist.

  I'm no writer (yet) but let me ask you this philosophical question - is every antagonist a villain?

  Imagine this situation - two paladins clash. The first wants to eradicate all bad people, including women who cheat on their husbands and bartenders who put water in their wine. The second wants to stop the first, because he thinks he (the first) has gone too far. Neither of them is a villain, yet one is the antagonist, the other the protagonist.

  Not to mention that depending on the point of view of the storyteller, each one of them can be the protagonist.

• Okan-Zeeus

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  Is every antagonist a villain?

  No.

  NO.

  Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Villains and antagonists are two completely different things. Your antagonist can be heroic and your protagonist can be villainous. The difference lies in how these terms relate to the story versus the characters.

  An antagonist is a force that acts against the protagonist. Villain is a label of morality, used to define a character who performs acts that are morally abhorrent. This is the way I see it, at least.

  Is every antagonist a villain?

  No.

  NO.

  Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Villains and antagonists are two completely different things. Your antagonist can be heroic and your protagonist can be villainous. The difference lies in how these terms relate to the story versus the characters.

  An antagonist is a force that acts against the protagonist. Villain is a label of morality, used to define a character who performs acts that are morally abhorrent. This is the way I see it, at least.

• Okan-Zeeus

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  "A villain is someone who takes action without taking in consideration all of the consequences, especially those affecting others."

  I would disagree with this. I think a good villain can be thorough in their thought processes, but still choose to perform an action that is repulsive for some reason or another.

  "Just like a good hero, a villain needs to be relatable and convincing."

  Not necessarily. Not all villains have to be relatable, hence the idea of force-of-nature villains (see my post). The Joker from Batman is a good example of this. He is an embodiment of chaos. Sauron from lotr is another example. These characters aren't relatable, but we still call them villains.

   "For me an antihero is a person that can be percieved as both a hero and a villain by the same group of persons having the same context.  A good example is the well known and reputed Dohvakin."

  Chases-The-Wind would beg to differ. 

  ...Sorry, I think I'm in an argumentative mood right now. Please take no offense. I mean nothing by it. o_o'

  "A villain is someone who takes action without taking in consideration all of the consequences, especially those affecting others."

  I would disagree with this. I think a good villain can be thorough in their thought processes, but still choose to perform an action that is repulsive for some reason or another.

  "Just like a good hero, a villain needs to be relatable and convincing."

  Not necessarily. Not all villains have to be relatable, hence the idea of force-of-nature villains (see my post). The Joker from Batman is a good example of this. He is an embodiment of chaos. Sauron from lotr is another example. These characters aren't relatable, but we still call them villains.

   "For me an antihero is a person that can be percieved as both a hero and a villain by the same group of persons having the same context.  A good example is the well known and reputed Dohvakin."

  Chases-The-Wind would beg to differ. 

  ...Sorry, I think I'm in an argumentative mood right now. Please take no offense. I mean nothing by it. o_o'

• Overhate

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  Thanks, Okan, seems we're in agreement here.

  Thanks, Okan, seems we're in agreement here.

• Teineeva

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

  Well it's called Writers discuss so I find your criticism quite welcome. Nothing like a disagreement to engage my brain. Especially when it's well argumented.

  Well it's called Writers discuss so I find your criticism quite welcome. Nothing like a disagreement to engage my brain. Especially when it's well argumented.

• Sildriel

  

  Member
   

  August 1, 2015

   My analogies usually spawn during lunch time. 

   My analogies usually spawn during lunch time.