Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

Altmer Part 2: The Highborns

• Deleted Member

  
   

  September 14, 2015

  By verify, I mean clarification about half-elves being common; it is said Bethesda supported this piece and I take their word on the information presented as being accurate. I just want to make sure I did not misread the sources.

  The Real Barenziah mentions the possibility of half-elves on occasional but I do not recall any mentions of such pairings being common, and I cannot find any anything on the Brief History of Tamriel. I did find the Brief History of the Empire, however, and I did not find anything about half-elves being common in elven lands. Valenwood, perhaps, but I am not certain of Morrowind and Alinor, which would surprise me as those provinces are xenophobic.

  By verify, I mean clarification about half-elves being common; it is said Bethesda supported this piece and I take their word on the information presented as being accurate. I just want to make sure I did not misread the sources.

  The Real Barenziah mentions the possibility of half-elves on occasional but I do not recall any mentions of such pairings being common, and I cannot find any anything on the Brief History of Tamriel. I did find the Brief History of the Empire, however, and I did not find anything about half-elves being common in elven lands. Valenwood, perhaps, but I am not certain of Morrowind and Alinor, which would surprise me as those provinces are xenophobic.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 14, 2015

  There are some who would have you believe Vix always stuck to facts and never put anything into his articles he couldn't 100% verify. I argued before that he used logical deduction and reasoning in his work as much as the rest of us but they didn't like me saying that.

  In answer to your question I haven't a clue. Vix could probably explain it and say young Dunmer maidens were promiscuous enough that there must have been many illegitimate children from their trysts.

  If you like it go with it if not leave it out of your head canon, Bethesda be damned.

  There are some who would have you believe Vix always stuck to facts and never put anything into his articles he couldn't 100% verify. I argued before that he used logical deduction and reasoning in his work as much as the rest of us but they didn't like me saying that.

  In answer to your question I haven't a clue. Vix could probably explain it and say young Dunmer maidens were promiscuous enough that there must have been many illegitimate children from their trysts.

  If you like it go with it if not leave it out of your head canon, Bethesda be damned.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  September 14, 2015

  I argued before that he used logical deduction and reasoning in his work as much as the rest of us but they didn't like me saying that.

  I began to expect as much once I read the sources, which is not necessarily a bad thing as bits of lore are scattered and logical inferences are sometimes needed or are reasonable. I just wanted to know if my inferences were not incompatible with the lore, not that I would immediately abandon them, my probably irrational refusal to accept the Notes On Racial Phylogeny as the truth, for example.

  Basically, my understanding is that half-elves - whilst not impossible - are rare in comparison to the number of humans with varied human heritage because elves are not common in human provinces.

  In conclusion, I think a conversation with some common elves about a certain phenomenon, laws against it, and information about interactions between the populations would speak more about larger society than an exceptional case like Barenziah's.

  I don't know. Perhaps I need to tone down on the pseudo-historical analysis of the lore :P.

  I argued before that he used logical deduction and reasoning in his work as much as the rest of us but they didn't like me saying that.

  I began to expect as much once I read the sources, which is not necessarily a bad thing as bits of lore are scattered and logical inferences are sometimes needed or are reasonable. I just wanted to know if my inferences were not incompatible with the lore, not that I would immediately abandon them, my probably irrational refusal to accept the Notes On Racial Phylogeny as the truth, for example.

  Basically, my understanding is that half-elves - whilst not impossible - are rare in comparison to the number of humans with varied human heritage because elves are not common in human provinces.

  In conclusion, I think a conversation with some common elves about a certain phenomenon, laws against it, and information about interactions between the populations would speak more about larger society than an exceptional case like Barenziah's.

  I don't know. Perhaps I need to tone down on the pseudo-historical analysis of the lore :P.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 15, 2015

  Never tone down the pseudo-historical analysis, it's far too much fun for that

  The thing about the passage you quoted is that he's citing The Real Barenziah, a fictional account of the Dunmer Queen's life in an article about Altmer. Indeed, not only that but there could be a statement in that book which contradicts the point he's making:

  "It is her child. Children are few among elves. No woman conceives more than four and that is very rare. Two is the allotted number. Some bear none, some only one. If I take this one from her, she may not conceive again."

  So elf children are rare but half elf children are common enough? Lol, I have no problems with using Barenziah as a source as I think he'd have been remiss not to. Yet i think we can also say that it is just another case of reader beware as is all pieces of Elder Scrolls lore.

  Edit: As for Racial Phylogeny I agree with you. We've already got at least one instance where we can prove it wrong but it still remains the only source of its type.

  Never tone down the pseudo-historical analysis, it's far too much fun for that

  The thing about the passage you quoted is that he's citing The Real Barenziah, a fictional account of the Dunmer Queen's life in an article about Altmer. Indeed, not only that but there could be a statement in that book which contradicts the point he's making:

  "It is her child. Children are few among elves. No woman conceives more than four and that is very rare. Two is the allotted number. Some bear none, some only one. If I take this one from her, she may not conceive again."

  So elf children are rare but half elf children are common enough? Lol, I have no problems with using Barenziah as a source as I think he'd have been remiss not to. Yet i think we can also say that it is just another case of reader beware as is all pieces of Elder Scrolls lore.

  Edit: As for Racial Phylogeny I agree with you. We've already got at least one instance where we can prove it wrong but it still remains the only source of its type.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  September 15, 2015

  By human standards, four children is nothing .

  We've already got at least one instance where we can prove it wrong 

  Are you talking about Mankar Camoran* or the Bretons, specifically, The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?  and this passage:

   Over time, this led to the establishment of a recognized caste of mixed-blood humans, who were given the name "Bretons" (from the Ehlnofex "beratu," or "half"). The Breton caste was only allowed to marry humans, so over time their Elven blood became more diluted, and the Nedic appearance predominated.

  If I am not mistaken, that is how it works in our world, although blood is not the metric - that would be alleles. The first pocket guide (link) also has this claim, that Bretons were, at one point, similar to elves - keeping in mind the anti-elven propaganda. Furthermore, the first pocket guide makes use of terminology that does not - in my opinion - make sense with the rule of the child often inheriting the mother's race, like mongrel and mixed races (link). 

  One can even find in ESO scant references to Bosmer as mongrel elves.

  *Disclaimer: pretentious mode

  I find it hilarious and irritating that on the UESP page for Hayman Camoran it asserts Mankar could not be Hayman's son when Notes on Racial Phylogeny does not say the child will always inherit the mother's race - generally means in most cases.

  To illustrate, that is why I generally do not bother reading their written segments, which includes information not even mentioned in the lore, and that is also why I generally avoid reading anything on tamriel.b1 because they seem to be in need of a dictionary. Rather than fighting the system with veracity on my side, I generally avoid role-playing altogether and just write stories.

  Come to think of it, I've always struggled with multi-player. I generally do not like video games but this online stuff is... it's treasonous!

  #aloofliving 

  By human standards, four children is nothing .

  We've already got at least one instance where we can prove it wrong 

  Are you talking about Mankar Camoran* or the Bretons, specifically, The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?  and this passage:

   Over time, this led to the establishment of a recognized caste of mixed-blood humans, who were given the name "Bretons" (from the Ehlnofex "beratu," or "half"). The Breton caste was only allowed to marry humans, so over time their Elven blood became more diluted, and the Nedic appearance predominated.

  If I am not mistaken, that is how it works in our world, although blood is not the metric - that would be alleles. The first pocket guide (link) also has this claim, that Bretons were, at one point, similar to elves - keeping in mind the anti-elven propaganda. Furthermore, the first pocket guide makes use of terminology that does not - in my opinion - make sense with the rule of the child often inheriting the mother's race, like mongrel and mixed races (link). 

  One can even find in ESO scant references to Bosmer as mongrel elves.

  *Disclaimer: pretentious mode

  I find it hilarious and irritating that on the UESP page for Hayman Camoran it asserts Mankar could not be Hayman's son when Notes on Racial Phylogeny does not say the child will always inherit the mother's race - generally means in most cases.

  To illustrate, that is why I generally do not bother reading their written segments, which includes information not even mentioned in the lore, and that is also why I generally avoid reading anything on tamriel.b1 because they seem to be in need of a dictionary. Rather than fighting the system with veracity on my side, I generally avoid role-playing altogether and just write stories.

  Come to think of it, I've always struggled with multi-player. I generally do not like video games but this online stuff is... it's treasonous!

  #aloofliving 

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 16, 2015

  Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.

  I would never argue against the interpretation you mention which is solid enough and actually gives a player or writer more freedom rather than limits like the link you posted does. Freedom and player choice are good things. However, I am loathe to apply that freedom to historical figures such as Mankar.

  Don't get me wrong, I find the book frustrating enough and welcome the day we get another source, but in the meantime I prefer not to think that Mankar looks like an Altmer after generations of suspected Bosmer ancestors simply because... what exactly?

  Are you saying his father was an Altmer, thus proving the assertion in Notes wrong? As far as I'm aware (although I'd love the Usurper to be an Ayleid) Mankar's daddy was a Bosmer as was the mother. So again Notes makes no sense when applied to Manky C.

  The exception I was talking about when I said

  We've already got at least one instance where we can prove it wrong

  is found in The Fall of Vitharn. Now, prove it wrong may have been bold words and depending on how you view it may add to the ambiguity of the book and thus prove your point. Also, I am assuming Csaran is not an Argonian,

  As for multiplayer I agree. You sound as misanthropic as I and I think we should both join the Diogenes Club with Mycroft Holmes and sit in silence all day.

  Generally the offspring bear the racial traits of the mother, though some traces of the father's race may also be present.

  I would never argue against the interpretation you mention which is solid enough and actually gives a player or writer more freedom rather than limits like the link you posted does. Freedom and player choice are good things. However, I am loathe to apply that freedom to historical figures such as Mankar.

  Don't get me wrong, I find the book frustrating enough and welcome the day we get another source, but in the meantime I prefer not to think that Mankar looks like an Altmer after generations of suspected Bosmer ancestors simply because... what exactly?

  Are you saying his father was an Altmer, thus proving the assertion in Notes wrong? As far as I'm aware (although I'd love the Usurper to be an Ayleid) Mankar's daddy was a Bosmer as was the mother. So again Notes makes no sense when applied to Manky C.

  The exception I was talking about when I said

  We've already got at least one instance where we can prove it wrong

  is found in The Fall of Vitharn. Now, prove it wrong may have been bold words and depending on how you view it may add to the ambiguity of the book and thus prove your point. Also, I am assuming Csaran is not an Argonian,

  As for multiplayer I agree. You sound as misanthropic as I and I think we should both join the Diogenes Club with Mycroft Holmes and sit in silence all day.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  September 16, 2015

  Are you saying his father was an Altmer, thus proving the assertion in Notes wrong?

  Neither, actually. Notes is inconsequential in my head-canon. I was referring to the claim on the aforementioned UESP page (link), specifically the irritating notion that generally means always. Their reasoning is simply flawed and it is hard for me not to find such reasoning annoying.

  That aside, Manny Cezzy's Altmer-ness could be an blunder by the developers; however, if one is not seeing inheritance within the parameters of Notes but like our world, it is possible - though improbable - for a child to have the appearance of another race if their parents have some distant ancestor(s) from said race. I see his race as a blunder but I certainly would not use UESP's reasoning to arrive at their conclusion.

  As for the Fall of Vitharn, that is yet another reason why I disregard Notes. Furthermore, Imperial nobility are claimed to have faint Akaviri features yet Notes say it is not known if the Tsaesci can breed with humans. Perhaps those scholars should have had their stipends revoked.

  Akaviri surnames are rare and prized possessions among the Cyrodilic citizenry of today, and there are trace facial features of the Akaviri in many distinguished Cyrodilic families (link).

  ---

  Also, I am assuming Csaran is not an Argonian

  As do I. The names and peerage do not imply Argonian.

  You sound as misanthropic as I and I think we should both join the Diogenes Club with Mycroft Holmes and sit in silence all day.

  To endure the silence of others? . Madness.

  Are you saying his father was an Altmer, thus proving the assertion in Notes wrong?

  Neither, actually. Notes is inconsequential in my head-canon. I was referring to the claim on the aforementioned UESP page (link), specifically the irritating notion that generally means always. Their reasoning is simply flawed and it is hard for me not to find such reasoning annoying.

  That aside, Manny Cezzy's Altmer-ness could be an blunder by the developers; however, if one is not seeing inheritance within the parameters of Notes but like our world, it is possible - though improbable - for a child to have the appearance of another race if their parents have some distant ancestor(s) from said race. I see his race as a blunder but I certainly would not use UESP's reasoning to arrive at their conclusion.

  As for the Fall of Vitharn, that is yet another reason why I disregard Notes. Furthermore, Imperial nobility are claimed to have faint Akaviri features yet Notes say it is not known if the Tsaesci can breed with humans. Perhaps those scholars should have had their stipends revoked.

  Akaviri surnames are rare and prized possessions among the Cyrodilic citizenry of today, and there are trace facial features of the Akaviri in many distinguished Cyrodilic families (link).

  ---

  Also, I am assuming Csaran is not an Argonian

  As do I. The names and peerage do not imply Argonian.

  You sound as misanthropic as I and I think we should both join the Diogenes Club with Mycroft Holmes and sit in silence all day.

  To endure the silence of others? . Madness.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 16, 2015

  Good call on the PGE Akaviri thing, that one never even crossed my mind despite a few scrapped builds on the concept. I think Notes can be pretty easily dismissed like many books in ES and I have no issues with that but I know this community too well to think it will fall out of favour as most would rather have a source, even an incorrect one, than no source at all.

  Having said that, if someone were to tell me that Mankar's Altmeri appearance was due to an ancestral dormant gene reasserting itself I would find that deeply unsatisfying. I would probably require an example of a precedent before accepting the idea that "well it works like that in our world.." as a defense.

  Good call on the PGE Akaviri thing, that one never even crossed my mind despite a few scrapped builds on the concept. I think Notes can be pretty easily dismissed like many books in ES and I have no issues with that but I know this community too well to think it will fall out of favour as most would rather have a source, even an incorrect one, than no source at all.

  Having said that, if someone were to tell me that Mankar's Altmeri appearance was due to an ancestral dormant gene reasserting itself I would find that deeply unsatisfying. I would probably require an example of a precedent before accepting the idea that "well it works like that in our world.." as a defense.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  September 17, 2015

  but I know this community too well to think it will fall out of favour as most would rather have a source, even an incorrect one, than no source at all.

  Really?! Even when rational argument and cross references can call a source's validity into question?

  Having said that, if someone were to tell me that Mankar's Altmeri appearance was due to an ancestral dormant gene reasserting itself I would find that deeply unsatisfying. I would probably require an example of a precedent before accepting the idea that "well it works like that in our world.." as a defense.

  I'm not sure if an atavism would be the best way to describe that and there is a bit more to gene expression than simply having the gene (link), though that is diverging.

  I would not place my bets on that being the reason for Mankar's race; blunder seems more likely but knowing Bethesda... you never know.

  Good call on the PGE Akaviri thing, that one never even crossed my mind despite a few scrapped builds on the concept. 

  That is just one bit of what I like about the 1st ed. PGE. They have some neat information that could be further developed.

  The stuff mentioned about High Rock (too diverse for a census, commonplace magic, and the Adamantine Tower) could be used to make the Bretons less generic than they appear.

  The Bosmer's crazy shape-shifting and camouflage could be explored more; if players somehow need racial abilities for the races/species to feel distinguishable, abilities like those would be the ones to have rather than what are effectively stat-buffs.   

  The Old Holds in Skyrim could have been more distinguishable in TES V, and how about a Khajiit or two who look like elves and humans? 

  I'm getting off topic now.

  but I know this community too well to think it will fall out of favour as most would rather have a source, even an incorrect one, than no source at all.

  Really?! Even when rational argument and cross references can call a source's validity into question?

  Having said that, if someone were to tell me that Mankar's Altmeri appearance was due to an ancestral dormant gene reasserting itself I would find that deeply unsatisfying. I would probably require an example of a precedent before accepting the idea that "well it works like that in our world.." as a defense.

  I'm not sure if an atavism would be the best way to describe that and there is a bit more to gene expression than simply having the gene (link), though that is diverging.

  I would not place my bets on that being the reason for Mankar's race; blunder seems more likely but knowing Bethesda... you never know.

  Good call on the PGE Akaviri thing, that one never even crossed my mind despite a few scrapped builds on the concept. 

  That is just one bit of what I like about the 1st ed. PGE. They have some neat information that could be further developed.

  The stuff mentioned about High Rock (too diverse for a census, commonplace magic, and the Adamantine Tower) could be used to make the Bretons less generic than they appear.

  The Bosmer's crazy shape-shifting and camouflage could be explored more; if players somehow need racial abilities for the races/species to feel distinguishable, abilities like those would be the ones to have rather than what are effectively stat-buffs.   

  The Old Holds in Skyrim could have been more distinguishable in TES V, and how about a Khajiit or two who look like elves and humans? 

  I'm getting off topic now.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 20, 2015

  Really?! Even when rational argument and cross references can call a source's validity into question?

  Maybe I'm being slightly unfair but Tamriel Vault is primarily a source for builders and as such lore only matters to the extent that it validates a build or character concept. As such anything which is deemed to be fan fiction, no matter how well rounded, is unlikely to be taken seriously. I can't really blame them for that, many are still getting to grips with the differences between TES and other IPs in the way lore is delivered.

  I'm not sure if an atavism would be the best way to describe that and there is a bit more to gene expression than simply having the gene (link), though that is diverging.

  I would not place my bets on that being the reason for Mankar's race; blunder seems more likely but knowing Bethesda... you never know.

  I'm in two minds about the Mankar thing but I don't necessarily want to chalk his race down to a blunder as I think it was a planned thing. A lot of time was spent on dialogue and it's clear from the making of documentary that Todd H is a big fan of Terrance Stamp. Someone would have noticed that he's the wrong race.

  I find it more likely that the other lore about the Camorans being Bosmer is wrong, unreliable narrator and all that. No, I prefer the explanation that he carved himself a new identity as per the Commentaries. Or that he's an Ayleid. Not sure which is better

  The stuff mentioned about High Rock (too diverse for a census, commonplace magic, and the Adamantine Tower) could be used to make the Bretons less generic than they appear.

  As for PGE 1Ed I love it. Bretons get a raw deal I think, often they are mentioned or used in the blandest way possible without thought to the driving force of their cultural background.

  The Bretons are a race who need their own article here in order to get the message out there that one from the magical elite may have a very different outlook towards elves and magic than one from the peasantry. Listing Breton as a race in a build or rp project just doesn't tell the full story.

  Really?! Even when rational argument and cross references can call a source's validity into question?

  Maybe I'm being slightly unfair but Tamriel Vault is primarily a source for builders and as such lore only matters to the extent that it validates a build or character concept. As such anything which is deemed to be fan fiction, no matter how well rounded, is unlikely to be taken seriously. I can't really blame them for that, many are still getting to grips with the differences between TES and other IPs in the way lore is delivered.

  I'm not sure if an atavism would be the best way to describe that and there is a bit more to gene expression than simply having the gene (link), though that is diverging.

  I would not place my bets on that being the reason for Mankar's race; blunder seems more likely but knowing Bethesda... you never know.

  I'm in two minds about the Mankar thing but I don't necessarily want to chalk his race down to a blunder as I think it was a planned thing. A lot of time was spent on dialogue and it's clear from the making of documentary that Todd H is a big fan of Terrance Stamp. Someone would have noticed that he's the wrong race.

  I find it more likely that the other lore about the Camorans being Bosmer is wrong, unreliable narrator and all that. No, I prefer the explanation that he carved himself a new identity as per the Commentaries. Or that he's an Ayleid. Not sure which is better

  The stuff mentioned about High Rock (too diverse for a census, commonplace magic, and the Adamantine Tower) could be used to make the Bretons less generic than they appear.

  As for PGE 1Ed I love it. Bretons get a raw deal I think, often they are mentioned or used in the blandest way possible without thought to the driving force of their cultural background.

  The Bretons are a race who need their own article here in order to get the message out there that one from the magical elite may have a very different outlook towards elves and magic than one from the peasantry. Listing Breton as a race in a build or rp project just doesn't tell the full story.