I'm starting to get excited about the ESO Murkmire dlc coming later in the year, feeling a bit of Hist hype going on. Got the Saxhleel shivers and Murkmire murmurs. I've also got a question in my own, rambling sorta way.
The picture above is of a Xanmeer, a pyramid structure in a style reminiscent of Mayan architecture. The Mayans were quite into their astronomy, El Castillo (or Pyramid of Kukulkán) in Mexico having been constructed with exactly 365 steps and possibly a deliberate positioning of the stones to create the appearance of a serpent, their god Kukulkán, with shadow and light as the sun sets.
Fascinating stuff, the erection of monolythic blocks to mark the turning of the year is prevalent around the world, perhaps most notably and similarly seen in this little clip:
We know the Argonians are very into the cycles of the seasons, their philosophy of embracing change seems to be a direct connection to their veneration of Sithis. That "go with the flow" outlook and respect for the cycles of life is seen in their art and motifs, such as this square spiral:
I'm not entirely sure if I'm right, but I think that symbol means something along the lines of evolutionary change and progression while encompassing concepts like awareness and balance - which, in my mind, are fitting themes when talking about a race created/uplifted by The Hist and sharing a symbiotic connection to those trees.
It's also a symbol vaguely reminiscent of the Shadow constellation:
The Shadow and its significance to modern Arrgonians barely needs to be highlighted, but why is this particular constellation singled out as being culturally significant while the rest are seemingly ignored?
This seems a little strange, especially when the seasons and turning of the year are deeply respected by the People of the Root as seen in this journal:
I think that I will die soon. The beast, Xal-Nur, eyes me constantly, and our numbers dwindle. It is difficult to see these Xit-Xaht as brothers and sisters. I spend all my waking hours looking for reasons to forgive them, or at least pity them. It is difficult. But despite their madness, they are still children of the root—my shell-kin. They have wandered from Sithis, but in their hearts they remain Saxhleel.
For example, I saw one of their masons puzzling over a tiny wooden tsleeoleek. Dry-skins would call this the "Argonian calendar," but that is because they are very foolish. The tsleeoleek counts the months and the weeks, but always it returns to where it started. It teaches us that change is eternal—that past and future are illusions. It warns us against the reckless vanity of ""progress." The Xit-Xaht do not know this, I think. Perhaps one of them will find this and realize their mistakes.
The tseeoleek means many things to many different tribes. For the Suzahleel, each of the twelve faces has a unique voice and lesson. They guide the tribe to truth, and remind us of our seasonal responsibilities.
The first is Bahat, the sun. The sun teaches us about origins
Next is Xeech, the nut. Xeech ushers in the Hiding Time. We plant our swamp bulbs and mosses and teach the hatchlings about their father Sithis. It is a time of hope, but also melancholy. This is one of the Three Mournings—for once a thing is planted, it is hidden and gone. What emerges is not the thing you planted. The nut is gone forever. This is an important lesson.
Now comes the Sisei—the sprout. Sesei stands for newness, possibility, and youth. The Hist has shed its sleeping life in the nut and begins its waking life in earnest.
Next is Hist-Deek, the Sapling. This is the deep sign. Hist-Deek calls us to challenge authority, and contemplate our unique role in the tribe. Each Saxhleel is forced to speak his or her own name before every meal, and sap-licking is forbidden. Some call this the Lukiul month, or the Leaping Season. I struggle with Hist-Deek, but it is a powerful time. ~ Elder's Account
There's one more source worth mentioning which hints at a lost form of magic appropriated by the Ayleids, a culture kinown for their veneration of light:
While one can't use rumors as a basis for facts, they serve as a conduit to the past.
Long ago, my people were powerful and learned. Xanmeers, the pyramids scattered throughout the marshes, were our creations, though details of their construction have long since passed from memory. We now see around us proud structures we once built, filled with our own Magicka.
Keystones are found in many of the Barsaebic Ayleid ruins, but only in ruins that touch lands where our ancestors lived. Tales abound of Ayleids gathering power from their captives through torment and fear. They describe a process in which Magicka is infused into stones: artifacts that were Ayleid in nature, but not Ayleid in origin.
I theorize these keystones hold Argonian Magicka tied to our history and essential for our protection. Nowhere else in Tamriel have any keystones been found; they are connected with Argonian history and indeed, our future.
Three keystones were taken from the ruins of Loriasel in Shadowfen and dispersed for study. Unfortunately, the first to examine the keystones suffered nervous conditions that ended their lives. It appears only certain individuals, such as the Kothringi, can handle them for any length of time without suffering ill effects.
Another aspect of the keystones, unique in my experience, is their cl— ~ Keystones of Loriasel
I'm going to need to replay that quest, for sure. To wrap these questions up, what's going on here? The symbiosis between light and tree is known to all as photosynthisis, an idea I'm trying to TESify when thinking of it as light = magicka, while water (in this case Hist sap) = memory, which is the very thing the Hist seem to absorb and redistribute through shared cultural visions and even Argonian reincarnation.
So that's it: Where do the stars and constellations fit into Argonian culture? Or do they even at all? Were stars and the seasonal cycle once more significant to the early Argonians and their Xanmeer served a similar purpose to those Mayan structures? What am i missing here?
I'm starting to get excited about the ESO Murkmire dlc coming later in the year, feeling a bit of Hist hype going on. Got the Saxhleel shivers and Murkmire murmurs. I've also got a question in my own, rambling sorta way.
The picture above is of a Xanmeer, a pyramid structure in a style reminiscent of Mayan architecture. The Mayans were quite into their astronomy, El Castillo (or Pyramid of Kukulkán) in Mexico having been constructed with exactly 365 steps and possibly a deliberate positioning of the stones to create the appearance of a serpent, their god Kukulkán, with shadow and light as the sun sets.
Fascinating stuff, the erection of monolythic blocks to mark the turning of the year is prevalent around the world, perhaps most notably and similarly seen in this little clip:
We know the Argonians are very into the cycles of the seasons, their philosophy of embracing change seems to be a direct connection to their veneration of Sithis. That "go with the flow" outlook and respect for the cycles of life is seen in their art and motifs, such as this square spiral:
I'm not entirely sure if I'm right, but I think that symbol means something along the lines of evolutionary change and progression while encompassing concepts like awareness and balance - which, in my mind, are fitting themes when talking about a race created/uplifted by The Hist and sharing a symbiotic connection to those trees.
It's also a symbol vaguely reminiscent of the Shadow constellation:
The Shadow and its significance to modern Arrgonians barely needs to be highlighted, but why is this particular constellation singled out as being culturally significant while the rest are seemingly ignored?
This seems a little strange, especially when the seasons and turning of the year are deeply respected by the People of the Root as seen in this journal:
I think that I will die soon. The beast, Xal-Nur, eyes me constantly, and our numbers dwindle. It is difficult to see these Xit-Xaht as brothers and sisters. I spend all my waking hours looking for reasons to forgive them, or at least pity them. It is difficult. But despite their madness, they are still children of the root—my shell-kin. They have wandered from Sithis, but in their hearts they remain Saxhleel.
For example, I saw one of their masons puzzling over a tiny wooden tsleeoleek. Dry-skins would call this the "Argonian calendar," but that is because they are very foolish. The tsleeoleek counts the months and the weeks, but always it returns to where it started. It teaches us that change is eternal—that past and future are illusions. It warns us against the reckless vanity of ""progress." The Xit-Xaht do not know this, I think. Perhaps one of them will find this and realize their mistakes.
The tseeoleek means many things to many different tribes. For the Suzahleel, each of the twelve faces has a unique voice and lesson. They guide the tribe to truth, and remind us of our seasonal responsibilities.
The first is Bahat, the sun. The sun teaches us about origins
Next is Xeech, the nut. Xeech ushers in the Hiding Time. We plant our swamp bulbs and mosses and teach the hatchlings about their father Sithis. It is a time of hope, but also melancholy. This is one of the Three Mournings—for once a thing is planted, it is hidden and gone. What emerges is not the thing you planted. The nut is gone forever. This is an important lesson.
Now comes the Sisei—the sprout. Sesei stands for newness, possibility, and youth. The Hist has shed its sleeping life in the nut and begins its waking life in earnest.
Next is Hist-Deek, the Sapling. This is the deep sign. Hist-Deek calls us to challenge authority, and contemplate our unique role in the tribe. Each Saxhleel is forced to speak his or her own name before every meal, and sap-licking is forbidden. Some call this the Lukiul month, or the Leaping Season. I struggle with Hist-Deek, but it is a powerful time. ~ Elder's Account
There's one more source worth mentioning which hints at a lost form of magic appropriated by the Ayleids, a culture kinown for their veneration of light:
While one can't use rumors as a basis for facts, they serve as a conduit to the past.
Long ago, my people were powerful and learned. Xanmeers, the pyramids scattered throughout the marshes, were our creations, though details of their construction have long since passed from memory. We now see around us proud structures we once built, filled with our own Magicka.
Keystones are found in many of the Barsaebic Ayleid ruins, but only in ruins that touch lands where our ancestors lived. Tales abound of Ayleids gathering power from their captives through torment and fear. They describe a process in which Magicka is infused into stones: artifacts that were Ayleid in nature, but not Ayleid in origin.
I theorize these keystones hold Argonian Magicka tied to our history and essential for our protection. Nowhere else in Tamriel have any keystones been found; they are connected with Argonian history and indeed, our future.
Three keystones were taken from the ruins of Loriasel in Shadowfen and dispersed for study. Unfortunately, the first to examine the keystones suffered nervous conditions that ended their lives. It appears only certain individuals, such as the Kothringi, can handle them for any length of time without suffering ill effects.
Another aspect of the keystones, unique in my experience, is their cl— ~ Keystones of Loriasel
I'm going to need to replay that quest, for sure. To wrap these questions up, what's going on here? The symbiosis between light and tree is known to all as photosynthisis, an idea I'm trying to TESify when thinking of it as light = magicka, while water (in this case Hist sap) = memory, which is the very thing the Hist seem to absorb and redistribute through shared cultural visions and even Argonian reincarnation.
So that's it: Where do the stars and constellations fit into Argonian culture? Or do they even at all? Were stars and the seasonal cycle once more significant to the early Argonians and their Xanmeer served a similar purpose to those Mayan structures? What am i missing here?
Not sure, Phil. I've been doing a lot of heavy research into Argonian culture for my new story, but you've dug up some new ideas that make me glad that I've not written chapter four yet. That chapter is actually set around and then inside a Xanmeer. I definitely do see the connection with light, cause if you look at them hist flowers, they be bioluminescent and I think that the sap also is bioluminescent. I keep using that word, but that's the only way I can describe how those things emit light. At least that's how I see them from the pictures.
I'll have a more detailed read of your sources today and see if I can contribute anything more thoughtful. Or see what I can extract of this to use in The Sword.
Not sure, Phil. I've been doing a lot of heavy research into Argonian culture for my new story, but you've dug up some new ideas that make me glad that I've not written chapter four yet. That chapter is actually set around and then inside a Xanmeer. I definitely do see the connection with light, cause if you look at them hist flowers, they be bioluminescent and I think that the sap also is bioluminescent. I keep using that word, but that's the only way I can describe how those things emit light. At least that's how I see them from the pictures.
I'll have a more detailed read of your sources today and see if I can contribute anything more thoughtful. Or see what I can extract of this to use in The Sword.
Thank you Lis :) Yes to Aztec, too. Definitely Mesoamerican stuff going on in terms of architecture, focus on the calendar year and cycle, and cultural iconography. Hell, even some of the mythology - the Mayan Plumed Serpent who comes back twice a year has shades of Sithis or the Serpent constellation within it.
That's why I just don't get (or haven't seen) any of the other constellations other than the Shadow holding significance to the Argonians. The Xanmeers hint of having all that complexity, of being made by a people to whom the sun and stars hold huge significance based purely on the art and architectural inspirations.
And it makes me wonder about whether the Magna-Ge once had any meaning to the ancient Argonians. I mean, we think about Hist and memory... We could equate that to concepts such as Magnus and the Blue Star collecting memories and events. Evaporation, you know?
Iirc, we can enter Haj Uxith in Coldharbour and a Xanmeer in Hissmir. Not a problem to take screenshots or a video walk-through if needed.
Thank you Lis :) Yes to Aztec, too. Definitely Mesoamerican stuff going on in terms of architecture, focus on the calendar year and cycle, and cultural iconography. Hell, even some of the mythology - the Mayan Plumed Serpent who comes back twice a year has shades of Sithis or the Serpent constellation within it.
That's why I just don't get (or haven't seen) any of the other constellations other than the Shadow holding significance to the Argonians. The Xanmeers hint of having all that complexity, of being made by a people to whom the sun and stars hold huge significance based purely on the art and architectural inspirations.
And it makes me wonder about whether the Magna-Ge once had any meaning to the ancient Argonians. I mean, we think about Hist and memory... We could equate that to concepts such as Magnus and the Blue Star collecting memories and events. Evaporation, you know?
Iirc, we can enter Haj Uxith in Coldharbour and a Xanmeer in Hissmir. Not a problem to take screenshots or a video walk-through if needed.
weirdly enough, the first thing I thought of when I saw this picture was the shivering isles. all that architecture. and then i thought about all the x's used in argonian names and all the x's used in the shivering isles names, and started wondering if there was a connection. and then, i looked around and found a lore article here that spoke of the argonian creation myth and sheogorath. i haven't read it yet all the way through, got it bookmarked, but i can't believe i'd never noticed that similarity before. totally, blindly, late to the game.
weirdly enough, the first thing I thought of when I saw this picture was the shivering isles. all that architecture. and then i thought about all the x's used in argonian names and all the x's used in the shivering isles names, and started wondering if there was a connection. and then, i looked around and found a lore article here that spoke of the argonian creation myth and sheogorath. i haven't read it yet all the way through, got it bookmarked, but i can't believe i'd never noticed that similarity before. totally, blindly, late to the game.
weirdly enough, the first thing I thought of when I saw this picture was the shivering isles. all that architecture. and then i thought about all the x's used in argonian names and all the x's used in the shivering isles names, and started wondering if there was a connection. and then, i looked around and found a lore article here that spoke of the argonian creation myth and sheogorath. i haven't read it yet all the way through, got it bookmarked, but i can't believe i'd never noticed that similarity before. totally, blindly, late to the game.
weirdly enough, the first thing I thought of when I saw this picture was the shivering isles. all that architecture. and then i thought about all the x's used in argonian names and all the x's used in the shivering isles names, and started wondering if there was a connection. and then, i looked around and found a lore article here that spoke of the argonian creation myth and sheogorath. i haven't read it yet all the way through, got it bookmarked, but i can't believe i'd never noticed that similarity before. totally, blindly, late to the game.
Yes, that one. Just read it, very cool. I'd never thought about it before because, quite frankly, i'd never given Argonians a second thought before. But yes, super cool.
Yes, that one. Just read it, very cool. I'd never thought about it before because, quite frankly, i'd never given Argonians a second thought before. But yes, super cool.
Yes, that one. Just read it, very cool. I'd never thought about it before because, quite frankly, i'd never given Argonians a second thought before. But yes, super cool.
I'm glad you brought that into this because, in addition to being cool, I did think about it when noodling this subject through :D
If we use that theory, then these Xanmeer could be relics of the Dawn Era: The Hist were on Tamriel before linear time, a place where there was no water, no memory. Then The Elhnofey Wars raged, the Dragon became bound, Lorkan's Heart gets ripped out, and time begins. Time brings with it the need for memory and so water appears on Nirn - this need for memory is what drives the Hist mad and some of them and their people end up in Sheogorath's realm (perhaps).
Yet that also means a bit of a problem for sun and stars in Argonian culture and the use of Xanmeers in a Mesoamerican context, for what need is there for tracking the seasons or star-gazing in the Dawn Era?
So my thought process became something like maybe the Xanmeer then become copies: Argonians of the Merethic Era copying the structures of their ancestors, starting to track the cycle of Nirn in almost the same way the Redguards hope to use the stars to find the Way back. That sort of led me to think about the Magna-Ge, those solar children who left.
At some point, though, these theoretical Argonians stop doing that, instead embracing a philosophy of change and moving with the river rather than trying to swim back up it.
Yes, that one. Just read it, very cool. I'd never thought about it before because, quite frankly, i'd never given Argonians a second thought before. But yes, super cool.
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I'm glad you brought that into this because, in addition to being cool, I did think about it when noodling this subject through :D
If we use that theory, then these Xanmeer could be relics of the Dawn Era: The Hist were on Tamriel before linear time, a place where there was no water, no memory. Then The Elhnofey Wars raged, the Dragon became bound, Lorkan's Heart gets ripped out, and time begins. Time brings with it the need for memory and so water appears on Nirn - this need for memory is what drives the Hist mad and some of them and their people end up in Sheogorath's realm (perhaps).
Yet that also means a bit of a problem for sun and stars in Argonian culture and the use of Xanmeers in a Mesoamerican context, for what need is there for tracking the seasons or star-gazing in the Dawn Era?
So my thought process became something like maybe the Xanmeer then become copies: Argonians of the Merethic Era copying the structures of their ancestors, starting to track the cycle of Nirn in almost the same way the Redguards hope to use the stars to find the Way back. That sort of led me to think about the Magna-Ge, those solar children who left.
At some point, though, these theoretical Argonians stop doing that, instead embracing a philosophy of change and moving with the river rather than trying to swim back up it.
Taking into account that stars are basically holes to Aetherius along with the Sun, and Aetherius is basically a sea of magick juice, we could come to understand that, just like our world's trees need solar radiation to cook their leaf bacon, TES trees -and Hist trees- require the low-intensity Magicka that showers the world constantly through these holes. Since the current constellation affects the Argonianling's life prospects (the most famous example being Shadow sign Argonians becoming Dark Brotherhood shadowscales), we could come to assume the Hist interprets the more prominent "holes" that form these constellations in different ways, and spills these interpretation onto that season's brood.
If my theory is correct and the Hist "reads" these holes like a magical blind tree, does that mean that these specific holes were left by more powerful Magna'ge with specific powers? I mean, the constellations' stars are bigger than most, and they seem to generate different effects. Besides, the Aedra and Daedra all seem to have their own things going on, isn't it possible that 5 of the Magna'ge happened to be super into Sithis, murder and invisibility, and also really powerful and friendly enough to each other to leave with certain proximity? Just a fun thought.
Taking into account that stars are basically holes to Aetherius along with the Sun, and Aetherius is basically a sea of magick juice, we could come to understand that, just like our world's trees need solar radiation to cook their leaf bacon, TES trees -and Hist trees- require the low-intensity Magicka that showers the world constantly through these holes. Since the current constellation affects the Argonianling's life prospects (the most famous example being Shadow sign Argonians becoming Dark Brotherhood shadowscales), we could come to assume the Hist interprets the more prominent "holes" that form these constellations in different ways, and spills these interpretation onto that season's brood.
If my theory is correct and the Hist "reads" these holes like a magical blind tree, does that mean that these specific holes were left by more powerful Magna'ge with specific powers? I mean, the constellations' stars are bigger than most, and they seem to generate different effects. Besides, the Aedra and Daedra all seem to have their own things going on, isn't it possible that 5 of the Magna'ge happened to be super into Sithis, murder and invisibility, and also really powerful and friendly enough to each other to leave with certain proximity? Just a fun thought.
Taking into account that stars are basically holes to Aetherius along with the Sun, and Aetherius is basically a sea of magick juice, we could come to understand that, just like our world's trees need solar radiation to cook their leaf bacon, TES trees -and Hist trees- require the low-intensity Magicka that showers the world constantly through these holes. Since the current constellation affects the Argonianling's life prospects (the most famous example being Shadow sign Argonians becoming Dark Brotherhood shadowscales), we could come to assume the Hist interprets the more prominent "holes" that form these constellations in different ways, and spills these interpretation onto that season's brood.
If my theory is correct and the Hist "reads" these holes like a magical blind tree, does that mean that these specific holes were left by more powerful Magna'ge with specific powers? I mean, the constellations' stars are bigger than most, and they seem to generate different effects. Besides, the Aedra and Daedra all seem to have their own things going on, isn't it possible that 5 of the Magna'ge happened to be super into Sithis, murder and invisibility, and also really powerful and friendly enough to each other to leave with certain proximity? Just a fun thought.
I think that's spot on. It reminds me of a similar idea I think Tein and Karver once told me about, this concept of a group of aligned Magna-Ge creating these holes, the pattern created holding some of their purpose and ethos. really cool stuff! That sort of fits the family-like structure as seen in the Magna-Ge Pantheon.
So we're absolutely on the same page, that pattern in the sky is like a musical cue note causing the magicka/light passing through it to resonate, perhaps, raining down upon those born under those signs and in those seasons to ultimately guide them on their star-patterned path.
We know the Argonians were into the seasonal cycle, we know of the Shadow and Shadowscales... So doesn't it stand to reason that there are others? Lordscales? Atronachhides? Serpentfangs? Not asssassins, of course, just designations or factions of Saxhleel who act in accordance to their sign. Or are the Shadowscales unique just because of that Sithian connection? If so, why not the Serpent - a slightly more fitting constellation for Sithian concepts?
Taking into account that stars are basically holes to Aetherius along with the Sun, and Aetherius is basically a sea of magick juice, we could come to understand that, just like our world's trees need solar radiation to cook their leaf bacon, TES trees -and Hist trees- require the low-intensity Magicka that showers the world constantly through these holes. Since the current constellation affects the Argonianling's life prospects (the most famous example being Shadow sign Argonians becoming Dark Brotherhood shadowscales), we could come to assume the Hist interprets the more prominent "holes" that form these constellations in different ways, and spills these interpretation onto that season's brood.
If my theory is correct and the Hist "reads" these holes like a magical blind tree, does that mean that these specific holes were left by more powerful Magna'ge with specific powers? I mean, the constellations' stars are bigger than most, and they seem to generate different effects. Besides, the Aedra and Daedra all seem to have their own things going on, isn't it possible that 5 of the Magna'ge happened to be super into Sithis, murder and invisibility, and also really powerful and friendly enough to each other to leave with certain proximity? Just a fun thought.
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I think that's spot on. It reminds me of a similar idea I think Tein and Karver once told me about, this concept of a group of aligned Magna-Ge creating these holes, the pattern created holding some of their purpose and ethos. really cool stuff! That sort of fits the family-like structure as seen in the Magna-Ge Pantheon.
So we're absolutely on the same page, that pattern in the sky is like a musical cue note causing the magicka/light passing through it to resonate, perhaps, raining down upon those born under those signs and in those seasons to ultimately guide them on their star-patterned path.
We know the Argonians were into the seasonal cycle, we know of the Shadow and Shadowscales... So doesn't it stand to reason that there are others? Lordscales? Atronachhides? Serpentfangs? Not asssassins, of course, just designations or factions of Saxhleel who act in accordance to their sign. Or are the Shadowscales unique just because of that Sithian connection? If so, why not the Serpent - a slightly more fitting constellation for Sithian concepts?
