Forums » Elder Scrolls

Delphine: Making a case for the Last Blade

    • 1595 posts
    April 10, 2014 3:27 AM EDT

    Delphine is arguably the most hated Character in Skyrim if the results of Paul's NPC Polls are anything to go by, and I have known she isn't generally well liked since 2011. However, I'm still not entirely sure why.

    So the purpose of this discussion is two-fold. Firstly, I wish to state the reasons why Delphine is one of my favourite characters in the game; secondly I wish to learn why it is she is so disliked.

    I think the character of Delphine was a bold move by Bethesda. A strong and opinionated middle-aged woman is not something we are used to in entertainment media and I rather suspect this is part of the problem. Without turning this into a feminist statement, I believe if the character of Delphine was younger and meeker (more like Serana) the community would accept her more readily.

    So why do I like her? I think that is because she is true. I mean, her character is definitely a product of her experiences - paranoid from thirty years of running from Thalmor death squads; decisive and authoritative from her actions during The Great War; and slightly bitter from these things. A fan of TES IV Oblivion in which The Blades were the good guys, meeting one of the last in Skyrim immediately made me nostalgic and at ease.

    I liked her personality and smiled when she wouldn't take any shit from the Dragonborn after returning The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller. However, she apologises for her cloak and dagger tactics after finally seeing the proof first hand of the player's soul devouring Dovahkiin status to whom she immediately reveals all.

    It isn't until meeting up with Esbern and their discovery of the existence of Paarthurnax that we run into difficulty. At this stage we have come to trust the old dovah and are reluctant to kill him. Let it be noted now that in all my playhtrough's I have never slain this particular dragon. However, I don't hate the Blades for this decision and even Paarthy himself admits the wisdom of their view. I also don't buy the idea that even though the Blades say they are sworn to protect the Dragonborn that they should do exactly as the PC wishes - that is pure ego on the part of the player and an oversight on behalf of the writers.

    So, now it's your turn: Why do you like Delphine? What are your reasons for not if you don't?

     I have cast a Stoneflesh spell and am wearing Boots of Flame Shield so don't be afraid of saying what you think

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 4:15 AM EDT

    There may be people who dislike her personality for a variety of reasons, but for me the crux of the matter is Paarthurnax. It is understandable why she believes he should be killed. He does represent a potential lasting threat and killing off the dragons is the original raison d'etat of the Blades, after all.

    However, to modern ways of thinking, killing Paarthurnax because he is a 'potential' threat falls into the same moral category as preventive war. It would have made sense to Louis XIV, but is generally condemned today (see: some of the harshest criticisms of the US invasion of Iraq). We don't (or at least we mostly don't believe we should) kill just because someone might pose a threat... someday... maybe. To us, that is inherently unjust and robs the victim of their right to make their own moral choices. It violates Kant's Categorical Imperative by denying the right of moral choice to the target and therefore treating them as an object instead of an end. Even if you aren't a Kantian, that notion that people have a right to make their own moral choices and should only be punished for bad choices after they make them permeates almost all modern moral teachings or indeed moral assumptions, even the vaguest notions of common sense.

    Delphine's attitude flies in the face of all that. It flies in the face of what most of us inherently think of as good and that makes her seem, to modern eyes, dangerously close to evil. I don't know that anyone goes and thinks about this consciously while playing, but I don't think it can help but be there on an unconscious and un-articulated level for most of us. At the very least it makes her seem very unreasonable, unhinged even.

    That said... I don't think that's entirely a fair judgement of her, even if it's one I feel and that I think many others feel. In her world, the world of Nirn, I think we see a fair bit of evidence that morality is defined much more by bonds of loyalty - to a lord, a guild, a Divine, a Daedra, etc - than in rationality or individual agency. It's a pre-Enlightenment world. Delphine is a Blade, and having that identity, which undoubtedly forms the bedrock of her sense of self as a person, includes assumptions such as: dragons are bad, dragons are dangerous, dragons WILL attempt to dominate and enslave mankind later if not sooner, it is our duty to kill all dragons, it is RIGHT and honorable to kill dragons. Her sense of being a good person is entirely tied up with being a good Blade.

    The problem then, boiled down, is that modern morality, even of the generic and unconsidered kind, is a morality of individuals. We don't see people as primarily part of a category and then as an individual. We may talk about them that way when talking about groups of people we don't know that we hear about in the news or whatnot, but for people we actually know they are individuals first and members of groups second. We are concerned about what is just and fair for the individuals we know (even if we support political goals that are against the groups they belong to) and Paarthurnax is an individual who has atoned for his sins and actively helped the player character to save the world. We see him as someONE who has done these good and helpful things, we do not see him merely as a representative of a group and that groups most common ideals/behaviors. Delphine sees him as part of that group, though... and probably every other person in Skyrim would, too... except the Greybeards (because of their group identity as his pupils).

    Before I ramble on even more, I'll just say that I like that Delphine is in the game to tempt and challenge the player. I don't think she's on the right side of the Paarthurnax issue and so I find her dubious and I don't like her as a character, but I'm aware that I think that because I live in 21st century America and not during the vast bulk of human history... or in Tamriel. And that makes her interesting and challenging.

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 4:36 AM EDT

    If you really press the issue with Delphine, she changes her tune a bit:

    "Here's the big picture. He helped Alduin enslave our ancestors. He may have betrayed Alduin in the end, but that makes him worse, not better. We can't afford to give Paarthurnax the opportunity to betray us in turn, and return to his old master."

    The underlined part is her fundamental justification: it's explicitly about what he might do - return to his old ways.

    • 1595 posts
    April 10, 2014 4:38 AM EDT

    That is a very good answer Incomitatus, thank you

    I think another problem regarding Paarthurnax is we are unable to fully agree with Delphine's sense of justice because we cannot grasp the timescale involved. I think most would agree that a criminal of war needs to answer for their crimes but in this case the crimes Paarthurnax is accused of aren't within a human lifespan - or even several.

    Couple this with the fact that Arngeir's defence of the dragon ("he's a dragon, there was nothing else he could be") carries some weight.

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 4:51 AM EDT

    Yeah, that's another way of looking at it, too. And it ties into Overhate's reply to me: is atonement for what Paarthurnax did possible given enough time? Because we're introduced first to the Greybeards, who obviously believe it is, and then Paarthurnax helps the player quite a bit in combating the threat of Alduin, and because he commits himself to teaching the (mostly) pacifistic Way of the Voice to the remaining dragons, the game really pushes us to see him as redeemed.

    That's kind manipulative, really, but I don't mind, because I think Arngeir's defense is what gives it merit: his long meditation on the Way of Voice means that he overcame his essential nature and over-turned all of his instincts and beliefs about what is the right and natural order of things. I also think that implicitly undermines Delphine's case: if Paarthurnax was going to be tempted to go full dragon again, he almost certainly would have already done it. It's been a looooooooooong time since he turned from that life.

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 4:59 AM EDT

    I think that's an interesting view, and it gets deep into the heart of jurisprudence and legal theory. I don't know what the law in the Empire would say, but if this were being debated in an American or, presumably, UK law court I don't think you could find anyone with standing to bring suit. It's doubtful there's anyone who could even trace their genealogy back reliably to someone with standing.

    The only entity that might have some claim against Paarthurnax would be the Crown of the High King of Skyrim... but if the Civil War isn't over yet (or even if it is, since the Moot never actually happens in the game)...?

    But that's here. Laws may be different there. Certainly, though, Delphine has no legal right to call for Paarthurnax's execution: the Blades don't exist, as per the White-Gold Concordat. She's just a plain old citizen of the Empire as far as the law is concerned. Which raises an interesting point... helping the Blades rebuild would be helping an outlaw band rebuild, just to add another layer on the moral complexities of Delphine.

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 5:05 AM EDT

    The basis of the 'a traitor once is always a traitor' being a moral judgement, though, is that it's an implicit prediction and belief about future behavior.

    And it's a perfectly justifiable reason to keep an eye on someone and not entirely trust them. I don't believe it's a justifiable reason to murder them.

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 5:24 AM EDT

    Well yeah, but as I pointed out, our concepts of morality have changed pretty dramatically since the middle ages.

    Thankfully!

    • 74 posts
    April 10, 2014 5:30 AM EDT

    Yep. And that's why I think Delphine's case is interesting and why I feel it can make sense, from a role-playing perspective, to do what she demands.

    It doesn't mean that I, Incomitatus, think she's right, though.

    • 1483 posts
    April 10, 2014 5:33 AM EDT
    Delphine sucks :P Seriously though, her reasons are understandable but the fact that she is obsessed with the Thalmor gets on my nerves. She's a soldier without leader, outlawed and bitter because of that and she is willing to blame the Thalmor for everything without even trying to see the big picture. Being a sworn protector of the Dragonborn she sends you to the Thalmor embassy alone, risking to lose the only edge against dragons and setting up Thalmor against both yourself and Malborn. If she was not blinded by her hatred she would notice the backdoor through Reeking cave and do everything much more safely.
    • 1913 posts
    April 10, 2014 5:47 AM EDT
    I need a moment... Cause I'm about to release all control on this one....