Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

The Ancient Nordic Pantheon

• Tom

  

  Member
   

  July 31, 2014

  My mistake, I stand corrected. Thanks shor.

  My mistake, I stand corrected. Thanks shor.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  August 30, 2014

  OP updated with Mara the Wolf. Let me know if I've missed a contributor out

  OP updated with Mara the Wolf. Let me know if I've missed a contributor out

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 1, 2014

  Op updated with Jhunal, rather unsatisfyingly it must be said. Let me know if I've missed a contributor out - this particular totem was a confusing one in the discussion due to the moth being a better fit because of the Elder Scroll connection and general lack of owl related myths in TES.

  Also updated with a little quote from The Emperor's Guide

  Op updated with Jhunal, rather unsatisfyingly it must be said. Let me know if I've missed a contributor out - this particular totem was a confusing one in the discussion due to the moth being a better fit because of the Elder Scroll connection and general lack of owl related myths in TES.

  Also updated with a little quote from The Emperor's Guide

• Kiralla

  

  Member
   

  September 3, 2014

  On the one hand, I gave Jhunal = owl on the other Ning, but I see that Tom gets all the credit for that; on the other hand, I've been given credit for the wolf, which wasn't me at all. I guess it all balances out in the end, lol.

  Here was my response before:

  Jhunal is the Rune God, god of hermetic orders, and is associated with language and mathematics. He became Julianos in Cyrodiil, god of literature, history, magic, and law. Monastic orders founded by him are the keepers of the Elder Scrolls.

  Jhunal = owl totem

  Now the Elder Scrolls are collected and read by Moth Priests, members of the Cult of the Ancestor Moths. Although this would seem to give him a connection to the moth totem, on reflection I think it far more likely that the owl is his totem. Firstly, because there is a long-standing and ancient association between owls and wisdom, knowledge, and magic - all of which are the province of Jhunal. Secondly, the figure in the Hall of Stories that is surrounded by moths is female (and thus cannot be Jhunal), whereas the one with owls is male.

  On the one hand, I gave Jhunal = owl on the other Ning, but I see that Tom gets all the credit for that; on the other hand, I've been given credit for the wolf, which wasn't me at all. I guess it all balances out in the end, lol.

  Here was my response before:

  Jhunal is the Rune God, god of hermetic orders, and is associated with language and mathematics. He became Julianos in Cyrodiil, god of literature, history, magic, and law. Monastic orders founded by him are the keepers of the Elder Scrolls.

  Jhunal = owl totem

  Now the Elder Scrolls are collected and read by Moth Priests, members of the Cult of the Ancestor Moths. Although this would seem to give him a connection to the moth totem, on reflection I think it far more likely that the owl is his totem. Firstly, because there is a long-standing and ancient association between owls and wisdom, knowledge, and magic - all of which are the province of Jhunal. Secondly, the figure in the Hall of Stories that is surrounded by moths is female (and thus cannot be Jhunal), whereas the one with owls is male.

• Kiralla

  

  Member
   

  September 3, 2014

  I thought I'd give this one simply because I came across it while finding Jhunal.

  Dibella = moth totem

  This one is partly a matter of elimination, and partly a matter of associations.

  One of the figures in the Hall of Stories is a female figure surrounded by moths, which means the moth totem must be associated with a goddess, not a god. There are only 3 females on the list: Kyne, Mara, and Dibella. The first two have already been associated with a totem, which only leaves Dibella.

  Having said that, the Ancestor Moth actually produces ancestor silk - and silk is material that has a long association with beauty, sensuality, and love. And Dibella is the Queen of Heaven, Goddess of Beauty, Lady of Love. Some of her many cults are devoted to women, some to artists and aesthetics, others to erotic instruction.

  Furthermore, she is often depicted holding flowers or with flowers in place of hands - and flowers are, of course, associated with butterflies. In fact, many may not realise it, but both butterflies and moths are lepidoptera, and both sip flower nectar as their sustenance. Thus, moths and flowers also have a significant association. Perhaps the totem could even be moth/butterfly.

  If so, butterflies are most definitely associated with beauty. Although, to be fair, there are some beautiful types of moth, especially day-flying ones.

  I thought I'd give this one simply because I came across it while finding Jhunal.

  Dibella = moth totem

  This one is partly a matter of elimination, and partly a matter of associations.

  One of the figures in the Hall of Stories is a female figure surrounded by moths, which means the moth totem must be associated with a goddess, not a god. There are only 3 females on the list: Kyne, Mara, and Dibella. The first two have already been associated with a totem, which only leaves Dibella.

  Having said that, the Ancestor Moth actually produces ancestor silk - and silk is material that has a long association with beauty, sensuality, and love. And Dibella is the Queen of Heaven, Goddess of Beauty, Lady of Love. Some of her many cults are devoted to women, some to artists and aesthetics, others to erotic instruction.

  Furthermore, she is often depicted holding flowers or with flowers in place of hands - and flowers are, of course, associated with butterflies. In fact, many may not realise it, but both butterflies and moths are lepidoptera, and both sip flower nectar as their sustenance. Thus, moths and flowers also have a significant association. Perhaps the totem could even be moth/butterfly.

  If so, butterflies are most definitely associated with beauty. Although, to be fair, there are some beautiful types of moth, especially day-flying ones.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 4, 2014

  Having said that, the Ancestor Moth actually produces ancestor silk - and silk is material that has a long association with beauty, sensuality, and love. And Dibella is the Queen of Heaven, Goddess of Beauty, Lady of Love.

  This is great, love that silk link.

  many may not realise it, but both butterflies and moths are lepidoptera, and both sip flower nectar as their sustenance. Thus, moths and flowers also have a significant association. Perhaps the totem could even be moth/butterfly.

  I did not know that. I thought moths ate clothes and the contents of my wallet

  Having said that, the Ancestor Moth actually produces ancestor silk - and silk is material that has a long association with beauty, sensuality, and love. And Dibella is the Queen of Heaven, Goddess of Beauty, Lady of Love.

  This is great, love that silk link.

  many may not realise it, but both butterflies and moths are lepidoptera, and both sip flower nectar as their sustenance. Thus, moths and flowers also have a significant association. Perhaps the totem could even be moth/butterfly.

  I did not know that. I thought moths ate clothes and the contents of my wallet

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 10, 2014

  Updated with Dibella the Moth. This leaves the Fox, the Bear, and the Snake remaining to add and call this project complete.

  Updated with Dibella the Moth. This leaves the Fox, the Bear, and the Snake remaining to add and call this project complete.

• Kiralla

  

  Member
   

  September 11, 2014

  Phil, just a couple errors I noted - firstly, I didn't identify Mara and the wolf, so you should probably give all the kudos back to Tom.  My only contributions were to Jhunal and Dibella. Secondly, I think you've got a pasting problem in the first sentence of the Moth entry - where you say the Ancestor Moth is typically associated with wisdom. I think that bit slipped out of the Owl entry or something.

  Good luck with the rest. Since you asked us not to spam, and just stick to one entry, and I've already done two, I'll bow out of the rest and let others have their go.

  Phil, just a couple errors I noted - firstly, I didn't identify Mara and the wolf, so you should probably give all the kudos back to Tom.  My only contributions were to Jhunal and Dibella. Secondly, I think you've got a pasting problem in the first sentence of the Moth entry - where you say the Ancestor Moth is typically associated with wisdom. I think that bit slipped out of the Owl entry or something.

  Good luck with the rest. Since you asked us not to spam, and just stick to one entry, and I've already done two, I'll bow out of the rest and let others have their go.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  September 11, 2014

  Thanks Kiralla. That moth/wisdom sentence does look out of place, I think it was a half finished thought which I didn't end up going with. It should say something like

  "moths, due to their with the Ancestor Moths and therefore the Elder Scrolls, should put this totem firmly in Jhunal's domain. However, a closer look reveals other associations which firmly put the moth in Dibella's sphere."

  For clarity I'll edit it out entirely.

  I was going to run with the idea that Dibella could be a goddess of wisdom from another Kalpa but it's too clumsy

  I'm pretty sure the last three are taken care of by Tom and/or Vazgen. It's just waiting for me to finish off to be honest. If you have anything to say regarding them please feel free - we got to 11 pages which is more than I hoped we would  More can't hurt and might even inspire some thoughts into your current Earth and Nirn Norse vs Nord topic.

  Thanks Kiralla. That moth/wisdom sentence does look out of place, I think it was a half finished thought which I didn't end up going with. It should say something like

  "moths, due to their with the Ancestor Moths and therefore the Elder Scrolls, should put this totem firmly in Jhunal's domain. However, a closer look reveals other associations which firmly put the moth in Dibella's sphere."

  For clarity I'll edit it out entirely.

  I was going to run with the idea that Dibella could be a goddess of wisdom from another Kalpa but it's too clumsy

  I'm pretty sure the last three are taken care of by Tom and/or Vazgen. It's just waiting for me to finish off to be honest. If you have anything to say regarding them please feel free - we got to 11 pages which is more than I hoped we would  More can't hurt and might even inspire some thoughts into your current Earth and Nirn Norse vs Nord topic.

• Kiralla

  

  Member
   

  September 12, 2014

  Well, okay then. Here's what I've got:.

  Shor = snake. Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan, while the Yokudan version of Lorkhan is Sep the Snake. When Tall Papa wanted help regulating the spirit trade he created Sep, also called the 'Second Serpent'. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods_S

  Stuhn = bear. Stuhn is the Nordic version of Stendarr, the first patron of the Imperial Legion (before Talos). The original Legions used the Bear as their symbol. In Skyrim, the Stormcloaks fight under the banner of the Bear. Here is the Stormcloak banner from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloaks

  

  Ysmir = fox. 'Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror [sic], and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.' From Before the Ages of Man http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man; http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Merethic_Era. And the UESP also states names of possible Shezzarines include: Hans the Fox (one of the Five Hundred Companions) and Arnand the Fox http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarrine.

  Well, okay then. Here's what I've got:.

  Shor = snake. Shor is the Nordic version of Lorkhan, while the Yokudan version of Lorkhan is Sep the Snake. When Tall Papa wanted help regulating the spirit trade he created Sep, also called the 'Second Serpent'. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gods_S

  Stuhn = bear. Stuhn is the Nordic version of Stendarr, the first patron of the Imperial Legion (before Talos). The original Legions used the Bear as their symbol. In Skyrim, the Stormcloaks fight under the banner of the Bear. Here is the Stormcloak banner from http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Stormcloaks

  

  Ysmir = fox. 'Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror [sic], and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., wandered Tamriel, gathering armies, conquering lands, ruling, then abandoning his kingdoms to wander again.' From Before the Ages of Man http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Before_the_Ages_of_Man; http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Merethic_Era. And the UESP also states names of possible Shezzarines include: Hans the Fox (one of the Five Hundred Companions) and Arnand the Fox http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Shezarrine.