Forums » General Gaming

Are retcons all that bad?

    • 577 posts
    August 13, 2017 1:34 PM EDT

    Cause every time I hear them talked about, it's in a bad way. It makes sense that new locations and people at different periods in time would have different information than the people in games before. Just a thought I had, wanted to get others'. 

  • August 13, 2017 2:01 PM EDT

    I hate them in some Franchises such as Warhammer and Fallout, Elder Scrolls also bug me about it

    • 224 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:14 PM EDT

    Oxhorn did a video about the Retcons in Fallout 4 and it pretty much sums up my feelings, some retcons are good and some are bad.

  • August 13, 2017 2:16 PM EDT

    Amadeus said:

    Oxhorn did a video about the Retcons in Fallout 4 and it pretty much sums up my feelings, some retcons are good and some are bad.

     

    I seen that video

    • 577 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:18 PM EDT

    Shy Knight of the Shovel said:

    I hate them in some Franchises such as Warhammer and Fallout, Elder Scrolls also bug me about it

    Which ones and why? 

    • 577 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:19 PM EDT

    Amadeus said:

    Oxhorn did a video about the Retcons in Fallout 4 and it pretty much sums up my feelings, some retcons are good and some are bad.

    I haven't seen it, could you elaborate? 

    • 1437 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:22 PM EDT

    It's a strange thing in gaming in comparison to other media. Could be because we're younger as an art form? I mean, growing up I was a proper Star Wars geek, and each new thing produced would alter what I already knew or shed light on things I didn't. I don't even keep up anymore, so retcons and degrees of canon mean nothing to me now. Yet SW is a saga spanning many decades whereas gaming and retcons in gaming rarely has that, umm, pedigree? Not sure the word I need here. So it's like in some ways a game won't know it wants a retcon until the writers and developers realise in the years-off sequels that they want to change things up.

    And I wonder how much of the retcons we do see in franchises that have been around for a while, like Metal Gear, ES, Fallout, Resident Evil etc are driven by the ever-evolving technology. As the writers and devs can get closer to their original vision or can tell a better story with new tech, retcons are almost guarenteed.

    For me I like them. ESO provides examples of things we thought we knew but are now viewed slightly differently. I wouldn't even call those retcons, really. ES has never been a universe of codex-like fact and all lore and setting details established previously are unreliable due to the mdium in which they are presented. So we can never say, "that's wrong" when we learn something new because anything we thought was firmly established was likely told to us via a book written by some dude we've never met.

    So that's my long-winded way of saying I like retcons, mostly. Mass Effect's Protheans bugged me a bit, after playing the first game and seeing statues of what I thought were Protheans on Ilos only to find out weren't sorta got me miffed, but generally anything that challenges or subverts is a good thing as it keeps the mind free.


    This post was edited by Paws at August 13, 2017 2:24 PM EDT
    • 224 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:26 PM EDT

    Legion said:

    Shy Knight of the Shovel said:

    I hate them in some Franchises such as Warhammer and Fallout, Elder Scrolls also bug me about it

    Which ones and why? 

    For the Elder Scrolls retcons there a long list, but I will list some of the mines since he mentioned ES.

    1. Every piece of Lore in Daggerfall and Arena was legit, and then it retcon and now the "real" lore of ES begins at Morrowind
    2. Only one ending of Daggerfall was legit, now everything happened like Mannimarco becoming a God and such
    3. Cyrodiil being lust forest got retcon, as well as Skyrim, being a frozen wasteland and the Nords still worshipping the Nordic Pantheon
  • August 13, 2017 2:27 PM EDT

    thanks Amadeus

    • 224 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:35 PM EDT

    Legion said:

    Amadeus said:

    Oxhorn did a video about the Retcons in Fallout 4 and it pretty much sums up my feelings, some retcons are good and some are bad.

    I haven't seen it, could you elaborate? 

    I can't remember the whole video, but the two I remember the most was about the T-60 Power Armor and the creation of Jet.

    In the video, he said players were always told T-51 was the best armor, but Fallout 4 comes in with the T-60 and makes it the best. He points out the positive in that by saying that the T-60 wasn't readily available as the T-51 for the Army and stuff back at home so they developed something better for them kind of like body armor for military and police, today. That pretty much sums up my feelings about the T-60 Power Armor.

    Now as for the Je retcon, he pretty much states that in Fallout 1 it was stated that Jet was invented by a local entrepreneur and such, but in Fallout 4 it was created by the same people who made Mentas, Med-X and the other chems making it a pre-war chem and not post-war chem, which like him I hate because that is just dumb.

    Also, a lot of that is paraphrasing because I don't remember the video off the top of my head.

    • 577 posts
    August 13, 2017 2:51 PM EDT

    @Phil

    And I wonder how much of the retcons we do see in franchises that have been around for a while, like Metal Gear, ES, Fallout, Resident Evil etc are driven by the ever-evolving technology. As the writers and devs can get closer to their original vision or can tell a better story with new tech, retcons are almost guarenteed.

    I was thinking the very same thing. Evolving technology and the need for games to actually improve with each release means retconning things, often to fit in with new gameplay mechanics. It's like...you can have a game world with no retcons, but no evolution, or have evolution and accept that some of the things you come to accept as true are going to change or be contradicted later on. It must be a pain for devs, if only because of how many people react with such vitriol. 

    @Amadeus

    For the Elder Scrolls retcons there a long list, but I will list some of the mines since he mentioned ES.

    1. Every piece of Lore in Daggerfall and Arena was legit, and then it retcon and now the "real" lore of ES begins at Morrowind
    2. Only one ending of Daggerfall was legit, now everything happened like Mannimarco becoming a God and such
    3. Cyrodiil being lust forest got retcon, as well as Skyrim, being a frozen wasteland and the Nords still worshipping the Nordic Pantheon

    I can't comment on much except the Skyrim thing here since I haven't played the others, but I thought the Nords still worshipped the Nordic pantheon in Skyrim? I mean, there are a lot of mentions of that pale shadow "Kynareth," but...how long has there been a strong Imperial presence in Skyrim? I mean, the time between when we heard that Nords worshipped the old gods to the time of Skyrim could have been long enough for the Imperial pantheon to root itself into Skyrim. 

    I can't remember the whole video, but the two I remember the most was about the T-60 Power Armor and the creation of Jet.

    In the video, he said players were always told T-51 was the best armor, but Fallout 4 comes in with the T-60 and makes it the best. He points out the positive in that by saying that the T-60 wasn't readily available as the T-51 for the Army and stuff back at home so they developed something better for them kind of like body armor for military and police, today. That pretty much sums up my feelings about the T-60 Power Armor.

    Now as for the Je retcon, he pretty much states that in Fallout 1 it was stated that Jet was invented by a local entrepreneur and such, but in Fallout 4 it was created by the same people who made Mentas, Med-X and the other chems making it a pre-war chem and not post-war chem, which like him I hate because that is just dumb.

    Also, a lot of that is paraphrasing because I don't remember the video off the top of my head.

    That's fair. I imagine there's some reasoning behind these retcons, though I can't say what. All I can figure is that the initial origin of Jet was a wasteland tale, and the story of it being pre-war came from something or someone old enough to know. But I don't know the in-game sources for this info. Do you? 

    • 224 posts
    August 13, 2017 3:04 PM EDT

    @ Legion

    Nah, they don't worship the Old Pantheon in any way except for little comments like Kyneareth being Kyne and such, but other than that they worship the Imperial Pantheon basically. Now it has been said that if MK was still writing for them then the Imperial Pantheon would be minimal in Skyrim, and the Old Gods like Shor, Kyne, Jhunal, Tsun, and the others would have a stronger presence. Very few Imperials wanted to go to Skyrim because of how harsh and cold it was, but since that got messed it pretty much nothing like that. It could in theory, but it seems stupid because the Nords would have fought harder against the Empire forcing their religion onto them. The Nords fought the Empire once before to keep their ways and succeeded, so the Old Gods stayed around. Even under the Septim the Nords still worshipped the Old Gods like Kyne and such just like how Morrowind was allowed to worship the Tribunal or the Orcs and Malacath.

    The reason why they retcon is easy to explain Bethesda has no clue on what they what to do because it is more about Gameplay over a good story with good lore. Jet Origins there you I gave a link because that would be easier to do.

    • 139 posts
    August 13, 2017 3:58 PM EDT

    For me it really depends, but generally (and in particular, for TES) I tend to dislike anything that goes against what's already been established.

    To use ES as an example, since it's what most of us will be familar with, basically what Amadeus said; Nords not worshipping their own pantheon, Cyrodiil being quite different, and lots of pre-Morrowind stuff, just to name a few.

    Also, another thing that gets me is a lot of what ESO added, the big one for me being it's "Alliances". Okay, so just to clarify first, I don't play ESO, so most of this is just what I've read, mostly on UESP, the Imperial Library, and other such Sites. But yeah, from everything I've seen in prior Lore, Argonians, Dunmer and Nords should pretty much hate each other (Just look at Windhelm, and slavery in Morrowind), and from what I know about Hammerfell, High Rock, and the Orcs, I just don't see why they'd ally, either. Also, I see that Balmora was actually part of House Redoran, but they got their best buds from House Hlaalu to build it for them. I guess Redoran architects must have been on strike, or something.

    Okay, so like I said, I haven't played it, and admittedly this becoming a bit of a rant against ESO, but if it's anything close to that then I just don't get it. I suppose those could be considered "bad" retcons to me, but that's not to say they all are. Like I said, I just don't like things that go against what's already been said and done, but if new Lore/history/whatever had to expand on something existing (like a lot of ESO's new creatures), then I wouldn't mind.

    • 1215 posts
    August 13, 2017 4:16 PM EDT

    Caesar said:

    For me it really depends, but generally (and in particular, for TES) I tend to dislike anything that goes against what's already been established.

    To use ES as an example, since it's what most of us will be familar with, basically what Amadeus said; Nords not worshipping their own pantheon, Cyrodiil being quite different, and lots of pre-Morrowind stuff, just to name a few.

    Also, another thing that gets me is a lot of what ESO added, the big one for me being it's "Alliances". Okay, so just to clarify first, I don't play ESO, so most of this is just what I've read, mostly on UESP, the Imperial Library, and other such Sites. But yeah, from everything I've seen in prior Lore, Argonians, Dunmer and Nords should pretty much hate each other (Just look at Windhelm, and slavery in Morrowind), and from what I know about Hammerfell, High Rock, and the Orcs, I just don't see why they'd ally, either. Also, I see that Balmora was actually part of House Redoran, but they got their best buds from House Hlaalu to build it for them. I guess Redoran architects must have been on strike, or something.

    Okay, so like I said, I haven't played it, and admittedly this becoming a bit of a rant against ESO, but if it's anything close to that then I just don't get it. I suppose those could be considered "bad" retcons to me, but that's not to say they all are. Like I said, I just don't like things that go against what's already been said and done, but if new Lore/history/whatever had to expand on something existing (like a lot of ESO's new creatures), then I wouldn't mind.

    CHIM can explain Cyrodill and didn't the Nords Dunmer and Argonians once ally against the Kamal Also mutual survival

    • 224 posts
    August 13, 2017 4:18 PM EDT

    Caesar said:

    For me it really depends, but generally (and in particular, for TES) I tend to dislike anything that goes against what's already been established.

    To use ES as an example, since it's what most of us will be familar with, basically what Amadeus said; Nords not worshipping their own pantheon, Cyrodiil being quite different, and lots of pre-Morrowind stuff, just to name a few.

    Also, another thing that gets me is a lot of what ESO added, the big one for me being it's "Alliances". Okay, so just to clarify first, I don't play ESO, so most of this is just what I've read, mostly on UESP, the Imperial Library, and other such Sites. But yeah, from everything I've seen in prior Lore, Argonians, Dunmer and Nords should pretty much hate each other (Just look at Windhelm, and slavery in Morrowind), and from what I know about Hammerfell, High Rock, and the Orcs, I just don't see why they'd ally, either. Also, I see that Balmora was actually part of House Redoran, but they got their best buds from House Hlaalu to build it for them. I guess Redoran architects must have been on strike, or something.

    Okay, so like I said, I haven't played it, and admittedly this becoming a bit of a rant against ESO, but if it's anything close to that then I just don't get it. I suppose those could be considered "bad" retcons to me, but that's not to say they all are. Like I said, I just don't like things that go against what's already been said and done, but if new Lore/history/whatever had to expand on something existing (like a lot of ESO's new creatures), then I wouldn't mind.

    The alliances aren't that bad of an idea. I understand where you are coming from about the hatred between the races, but I think it basically the ole saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I do think they could put their hatred aside to deal with Bal for he was the bigger threat to all of Tamriel including their own homeland. Also, the Redguards and Bretons have married each other a lot and have unified certain areas of both Hammerfell and High Rock.


    This post was edited by David at August 13, 2017 4:19 PM EDT
    • 692 posts
    August 14, 2017 2:02 PM EDT

    I don't really have a problem with 'reconning'

    The idea that we could know something accurately from a book written by a scholar many years previously is flawed. We know from the 'real world' that plenty of people write down 'history' (as they would see it) that later turns out to be inaccurate, misinterpreted or just plain hogwash.

    When it comes ESO, the ranting that you see on Reddit - about how ESO has mangled the lore - tends to focus on two things: the perceived misrepresentation of Cyrodiil and the existence of the three Alliances. The official line is that the belief that Cyrodiil was a lush jungle is a 'mistranslation'. Hmmm... convenient perhaps? But it wouldn't be the first time that has happened in history!

    As for the Alliances, and how Dunmer would never team up with Argonians and so on - well, anyone who has played ESO for any length of time will know that there are many quests, stories and dialogue about how permanently fragile the Alliances are. Probably 50% of the zone quests, at least, are about your desperate and endless (it seems) attempts to stop the Alliances imploding in a deluge of long-held hatreds and bitter feuding. 

    I'm comfortable with the notion that the Alliances coalesced out of necessity - for a season. But that, pretty soon after the events portrayed in ESO, the Alliances collpased. As to why it's never mentioned in any in-game books in Skyrim, well, that assumes that the Dragonborn reads every single book that has ever been written. How likely is that?