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Nords are Racist, but so is everyone else

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    • 39 posts
    June 22, 2017 5:13 PM EDT

    I created this post because I'm tired of people saying that the Nords are racist. Yes, they are. So is everyone else

    Altmer believe themselves superior. Bretons and Redguards slaughtering Orcs because they made a city. Ashlanders and Telvanni completely shunning everyone. Dunmer enslaving Argonians. Bosmer repelling those that won't comprimise to the Green Pact. No one bests an Orc. Argonians had slaves too. Khajiit are basically the only ones that aren't racist...

    But Nords wiped out almost all the snow elves. You know, when the snow elves decided that man was growing to fast and so attacked them at night. Slaughtering what had to be hundreds or even thousands of people. Tiber Septim determines that he can conquer the world and does it (much like Caesar or Alexander but we don't view them as evil, because they did it to their own people and not 10 races.)

    So, what do you think? Do you think Nords get a bad rap? Do you think they deserve the hate? Let me know.

    Also let me know if the Khajiit are racist.

    • 1356 posts
    June 22, 2017 5:24 PM EDT

    The cats have had some beef with the glade goblins in the past, and in the 2nd Era the Renrijra were born and these ruffians were into slavery and piracy. By the time of the 3rd Era they had dedictaed themselves to reclaiming territory they considered rightfully belonged to the cats. I like to think that by the Fourth Era this faction of kitty bandits were anti-Dominion. That's just make believe the last part, but it would be cool if the previously rough Mercenary's Grin became a fight for truth faction :D

    • 39 posts
    June 22, 2017 6:12 PM EDT

    So, even they are tainted by a history of slavery and oppression. Man, Bethesda must get off on racism or something (the previous comment was made in jest and not in any way meant to be taken seriously). Thanks for the info, Paws. 

    • 199 posts
    June 22, 2017 6:20 PM EDT
    Good post! As a song once said, "everybody's a little bit racist", and this applies so, so well to ES.
    • 166 posts
    June 22, 2017 6:44 PM EDT

    You mean only Nords and Altmer can be racist? And yet here I was thinking the Dunmer, who support slavery, where also racist due to their belief they are superior to the other races, uh who would have thought it.

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    • 1356 posts
    June 22, 2017 6:47 PM EDT

    RuinedCrown said:

    So, even they are tainted by a history of slavery and oppression. Man, Bethesda must get off on racism or something (the previous comment was made in jest and not in any way meant to be taken seriously). Thanks for the info, Paws. 

    It's great, though, isn't it? I mean, for us as roleplayers, these prejudices and ingrained cultural perspectives provide us with so many hooks to explore in-game. That they're not random and often have a rich history explaining why a culture may have a prevailing opinion makes the world seem real and gives us things to explore :)

    Tenebrous said: Good post! As a song once said, "everybody's a little bit racist", and this applies so, so well to ES.

    Haha, TES is far from an ideal world innit? 

    • 39 posts
    June 22, 2017 8:18 PM EDT

    [Insert Name] said:

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    Oh but their emperor has to be Imperial with "alyssian" descent, even though the first one was a Nord...(At least I think so...may be wrong)

    • 166 posts
    June 22, 2017 9:35 PM EDT

    RuinedCrown said:

    [Insert Name] said:

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    Oh but their emperor has to be Imperial with "alyssian" descent, even though the first one was a Nord...(At least I think so...may be wrong)

    Titus Mede the II isn't of "Alyssian" descent, so the "needing of being Alyssian descent" thing is false. Also, there have been plenty of Emperors who haven't been of "Alyssian" descent or blood. Also, the first was Nedic, not Nord.

    Plus using real world examples, royal families tend to transfer power to their own blood, just like Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece, or they we will have the "biggest army clause" i.e. my "army" is bigger so, therefore, I am the King.


    This post was edited by Amadeus Bolton at June 22, 2017 9:36 PM EDT
    • 1190 posts
    June 23, 2017 3:42 AM EDT

    [Insert Name] said:

    RuinedCrown said:

    [Insert Name] said:

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    Oh but their emperor has to be Imperial with "alyssian" descent, even though the first one was a Nord...(At least I think so...may be wrong)

    Titus Mede the II isn't of "Alyssian" descent, so the "needing of being Alyssian descent" thing is false. Also, there have been plenty of Emperors who haven't been of "Alyssian" descent or blood. Also, the first was Nedic, not Nord.

    Plus using real world examples, royal families tend to transfer power to their own blood, just like Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece, or they we will have the "biggest army clause" i.e. my "army" is bigger so, therefore, I am the King.

    Or having babies with relatives to "Keep the bloodline pure?"

    • 166 posts
    June 23, 2017 7:23 AM EDT

    Chris said:

    [Insert Name] said:

    RuinedCrown said:

    [Insert Name] said:

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    Oh but their emperor has to be Imperial with "alyssian" descent, even though the first one was a Nord...(At least I think so...may be wrong)

    Titus Mede the II isn't of "Alyssian" descent, so the "needing of being Alyssian descent" thing is false. Also, there have been plenty of Emperors who haven't been of "Alyssian" descent or blood. Also, the first was Nedic, not Nord.

    Plus using real world examples, royal families tend to transfer power to their own blood, just like Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece, or they we will have the "biggest army clause" i.e. my "army" is bigger so, therefore, I am the King.

    Or having babies with relatives to "Keep the bloodline pure?"

    Yeah, I meant to add that, but I thought it was implied.

    • 122 posts
    June 24, 2017 7:30 AM EDT

    RuinedCrown said:

    much like Caesar or Alexander but we don't view them as evil

    Yay, I'm not evil!

    But on a more serious note, I agree with pretty much everything you said. Personally, I've never viewed Nords (Including Stormcloaks) as being overly racist. Maybe a few bad apples here and there, but the rest on the bunch is still good.

    As much as I like them, I have to say that Dunmer are probably the most racist. Obviously the Telvanni, Dres, and Ashlanders would top the list, though in all fairness, I don't think the Redoran are that bad. The most racist thing I can think of them doing was defending against the Argonian invasions, and you can't really blame them for that, right?

    As for Khajiit, while I'm no expert on Lore, haven't they always had feuds with the Bosmer? I know they had the Five Year War against them, and possibly some other conflicts through history, but I'm not sure how racially motivated that was. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if there was still some bad blood between the two.


    This post was edited by Caesar at June 24, 2017 7:31 AM EDT
    • 425 posts
    June 25, 2017 9:26 AM EDT

    I think Bethesda has done a good job of showing the progression of people's opinions throughout the Elder Scrolls timeline. Yeah, Ysgramor went all axe happy on the Snow Elves, but now they're much more calm about the whole thing - I mean they let Elves live in their cities, so thats a start at least.

    I feel most hostility that remains between races (Argonians vs Dunmer, Khajiit vs Bosmer etc) is basically fighting because they always have, and in reality hostilities aren't what they seem. If a Telvanni reminsces about the good ol' days where Argonians did all the meanile work, then they're just missing times when stuff was easier, not necessarrily missing the Argonians subjugation.

    And I'd actually say that Orcs are the least prejudice of all the races. It'd be like calling some forgotten tribe in the Amazon racist because we encroach on their land. They just want a place to call their own. The whole 'no one bests an Orc thing' isn't as much racist as it is prideful. They're not saying that everyone else is weak, they're saying that they're strong.

    So I don't think everything is as clear cut as it seems, and times are quickly going away from the tensions of the past.

    • 39 posts
    June 25, 2017 5:29 PM EDT

    The Nameless King said:

    RuinedCrown said:

    [Insert Name] said:

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    Oh but their emperor has to be Imperial with "alyssian" descent, even though the first one was a Nord...(At least I think so...may be wrong)

    Titus Mede the II isn't of "Alyssian" descent, so the "needing of being Alyssian descent" thing is false. Also, there have been plenty of Emperors who haven't been of "Alyssian" descent or blood. Also, the first was Nedic, not Nord.

    Plus using real world examples, royal families tend to transfer power to their own blood, just like Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece, or they we will have the "biggest army clause" i.e. my "army" is bigger so, therefore, I am the King.

    Hjalti Half-beard wasn't a Nord? Or are your referring to Reman. I was talking about "Tiber Septim" a.k.a. (if my memory serves) Hjalti Half-beard...

    • 166 posts
    June 25, 2017 5:37 PM EDT

    RuinedCrown said:

    The Nameless King said:

    RuinedCrown said:

    [Insert Name] said:

    Also, I wouldn't say the Imperials are racist I mean they do allow all races to be in the Legion.

    Oh but their emperor has to be Imperial with "alyssian" descent, even though the first one was a Nord...(At least I think so...may be wrong)

    Titus Mede the II isn't of "Alyssian" descent, so the "needing of being Alyssian descent" thing is false. Also, there have been plenty of Emperors who haven't been of "Alyssian" descent or blood. Also, the first was Nedic, not Nord.

    Plus using real world examples, royal families tend to transfer power to their own blood, just like Ancient Rome and Ancient Greece, or they we will have the "biggest army clause" i.e. my "army" is bigger so, therefore, I am the King.

    Hjalti Half-beard wasn't a Nord? Or are your referring to Reman. I was talking about "Tiber Septim" a.k.a. (if my memory serves) Hjalti Half-beard...

    I was jus replying to your statement about every emperor having to have Alyssian blood. Yes Tiber Septim wasn't a Nord he was a Breton from High Rock and had no Alyssian blood in him. 

    • 39 posts
    June 25, 2017 5:37 PM EDT

    Quick replies.

    @Nameless&Chris

    I admit, the Imperial thing was rather nit-picky. Mostly about Tiber Septim and then Imperial descendants, but I don't know enough. I used to be more up to date on Imperial lore but not really anymore. So...ummm...yeah. That was definitely a reach.

     

    @Zonnon

    I think that the fact that you can only enter a outpost if your an orc or a Blood-kin is kinda wierd, but not necessarily racist as it is more for survival. I think I agree that the Orc's are the least racist with Imperials right about them. I do think that the "nobody bests an orc" thing may not be technically racist, so much as just stupid. It shows that Orcs at least have some supremacy issues that they gotta deal with. Too many orcs are saying this as my Nordic Hero decapitates them. It's just...stupid.

    • 425 posts
    June 26, 2017 11:29 AM EDT

    RuinedCrown said:

    @Zonnon

    I think that the fact that you can only enter a outpost if your an orc or a Blood-kin is kinda wierd, but not necessarily racist as it is more for survival. I think I agree that the Orc's are the least racist with Imperials right about them. I do think that the "nobody bests an orc" thing may not be technically racist, so much as just stupid. It shows that Orcs at least have some supremacy issues that they gotta deal with. Too many orcs are saying this as my Nordic Hero decapitates them. It's just...stupid.

    I see it more as national pride (and as the Orcs have kept as 'one nation' more than every other race, it makes sense more than 'racial pride'). Its like saying  us British make the best fish and chips. 'Nobody bests an Orc' just seems like they're psyching themselves up - I mean the Lion of London Bridge (legend by the way) did the same thing. And I mean if they're the toughest person they've ever met, some might actually believe it. Never discount nievity when it comes fantasy.

    • 39 posts
    June 26, 2017 6:08 PM EDT

    That's true. Though if by chips, you mean fries then you're sadly mistaken ;)

    • 127 posts
    June 27, 2017 2:40 PM EDT

    I think most of the problems extend from a few NPCs that make a bad impression. People who defend the "nords are racist" pont of view often point at the likes of Rolff and Ulfric who are the worst of the lot, while ignoring many other NPCs who couldn't really give a shit about your race. It's the same problem with Altmer, do you really expect every High Elf in Tamriel to be as self-righteous and asshole-ish as the Thalmor? No, however because the Thalmor are the ruling body of the Altmeri Dominion many people believe all High Elves are like that.

    • 272 posts
    June 27, 2017 3:19 PM EDT

    Pretty much what Ebonslayer said. Just look at people like Brunwulf Free-Winter, a Nord that doesn't care what race you are. Also, for the Altmer part, finding one that isn't up their own arsehole is difficult, but they do definitely exist, just look at Ulundil at Windhelm Stables, he straight up tells you he'd like to get to know you more.

    • 39 posts
    June 27, 2017 11:44 PM EDT

    There also seems to be some confusion between Nationalism and Racism. The Nords believe that Skyrim is their homeland and thus belongs to them. This idea isn't racist. It is a bit xenophobic, but for the most part it is simply the belief that certain immigrants are dropping the quality of life in Skyrim. Which is actually true in terms of returning to the average (as always happens when allowing refugees into a country [they have nothing, and thus draw the average down. It might be mean to not help them but Nordic culture is help yourself], and when fighting multiple wars on multiple fronts [i.e. forsworn, thalmor, and Imperials]). However, this belief is not racist. It is more like unto Russians dreaming about the "good ole days" under Soviet Union. Whether or not they should want to go back. They view their current circumstances (i.e. having to choose sides in a Civil War, Nordic culture being suppressed, and their beliefs being comprimised) as less than what it was in the past, and thus the phrase "Skyrim belongs to the Nords." This isn't a bunch of racists dreaming of the good old days. It's a bunch of people in crappy situations romanticizing a diffult past.

     

    (Note: Nords have been at war pretty much since landing on Tamriel. It has shaped their culture and is a major portion of how they view the world. Glory and Honor, brothers and sisters)

    • 279 posts
    June 28, 2017 3:10 AM EDT

    To be honest, this discussion is a bit pointless not to mention potentially volatile.

    ES and this site gather people from all over the world. Different regions of the world have totally different views and opinions and even paradigms regarding social and political issues.

    "Racism" is currently a delicate issue and fervent discussion in Northwestern Europe (incl. the British isles) and North America; so people from those regions often get "triggered" by actions and words they consider "racist", including in videogames. There are other regions in the world where people don't really care, there are even regions where people find racism to be normal and natural. People from the latter would find the Nords behaviour completely normal and won't even stop to notice it.

    • Moderator
    • 80 posts
    June 28, 2017 4:27 AM EDT

    OK, guys, I will be watching this discussion just to make sure things do not get too heated, this isn't really a topic to be discussed here, however I will rely on your restraint and maturity for now. Bonelord

  • June 28, 2017 7:50 AM EDT

    Overhate said:

    To be honest, this discussion is a bit pointless not to mention potentially volatile.

    ES and this site gather people from all over the world. Different regions of the world have totally different views and opinions and even paradigms regarding social and political issues.

    "Racism" is currently a delicate issue and fervent discussion in Northwestern Europe (incl. the British isles) and North America; so people from those regions often get "triggered" by actions and words they consider "racist", including in videogames. There are other regions in the world where people don't really care, there are even regions where people find racism to be normal and natural. People from the latter would find the Nords behaviour completely normal and won't even stop to notice it.

     

    I dont see how this is a volatile topic. Varioous races in this game don't exactly like each other so whats wrong with discussing that relationship? Anyone who gets "triggered" by this discussion should just simply stay out of it.

    • 279 posts
    June 28, 2017 7:55 AM EDT

    It's volatile exactly because people from different parts of the world have different value systems.

    We are brought to this site by our common love for gaming and a particular game series - TES - however, apart from that, we are or might be radically different in our approach to many things in life. And there is no way for such a discussion to stay only withing gaming terms, it will get out and turn into a battle of value systems. And I don't think here is the place for such a battle.

    • Moderator
    • 80 posts
    June 28, 2017 7:57 AM EDT

    OK, guys, this discussion is now closed before things start to escalate any further