Skyrim Tips and Tricks » Discussions

The real greatness of Necromage

• Balazs Krekacs

  

  Member
   

  June 19, 2015

  Hello guys,

  Maybe the topic is quite obvious, if so, then it will be deleted, but I did not see anything here on Necromage (aside from Necromage-Vampirism). I also realized that there are not much characters (if there are any) in the Character building group that relies heavily on Necromage WITHOUT Vampirism. I think it is woth it as a large portion of the enemies are undead - especially if Dawnguard is installed. Not to mention that higher level Undead are generally more powerful than regular NPCs so any boosts are welcome against them.

  So, I made some test in the game, because I had an impression that Necromage is more powerful than this "+25% effectiveness, +50% duration" thing. While these numbers are true for Necromage - Vampirism, also true for duration and effectiveness in terms of level against Undead enemies, they are false (in a positive way) when causing magic damage to Undead enemies.

  I could not come up with formulas (although I tried), but I did not find out how this perk works in terms of damage. I just tested a few spells to see how Necromage modifies them. The test was made on Adept difficulty on a Draugr Wight with no mods. I was very impressed. Let's see the pure numbers:

  Bane of the Undead

  • 69.85 - No Augmented flames, no Necromage - Affected evel: 30
  • 209.28 - Only Necromage - Affected level: 37
  • 104.44 - Only Augmented flames 2/2 - Affected level: 45
  • 318.43 - Both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2 - Affected level: 56

  Vampire's bane:

  • 54.64 - No Augmented flames, no Necromage - Not considered as Fire magic, as Augmented flames has no effect on it, but still, it seems Undead have weakness against it as the description says 40 damage.
  • 109.45 - Only Necromage
  • 109.45 - Both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2
  • Thus we can see this spell is not affected by Augmented flames.

  
  Fireball

  • 71.85 - Only Augmented flames 2/2 - We can say Undead have ~ 20% weakness to fire. (60 x 1.2 = 72, the result is very close to this)
  • 109.89 - Only Necromage
  • 164.66 - Both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2

  I tested Bane of the Undead and Vampire's bane on an Imperial Ancient Vampire too, with both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2.

  Vampire's bane: Exactly the same as above.

  Bane of the Undead: 429.92!!! - Just think about it...To cast this bastard during the battle in Volkihar castle 

  Note:

  Probably the damage of the Bane of the Undead was so high because of the stages of Vampirism, however I have no info if Vampire NPCs are affected by stages or not. The test was made also during the day and the night. According to UESP the base health of this vampire is 583. In the console command I saw the same number as reference base value and all the modifiers were 0 before I cast any spells. If they were affected by any stage, I assume the health would have been reduced. Or maybe they are affected only by the other effects but not by stat reduction...I don't know, if someone does, any info is welcome 

  So all in all, If you create a mage it is damn woth it to unlock Necromage. This is only one perk and it increases you effectiveness greatly.

  That's all guys, I hope you find this useful.

  Hello guys,

  Maybe the topic is quite obvious, if so, then it will be deleted, but I did not see anything here on Necromage (aside from Necromage-Vampirism). I also realized that there are not much characters (if there are any) in the Character building group that relies heavily on Necromage WITHOUT Vampirism. I think it is woth it as a large portion of the enemies are undead - especially if Dawnguard is installed. Not to mention that higher level Undead are generally more powerful than regular NPCs so any boosts are welcome against them.

  So, I made some test in the game, because I had an impression that Necromage is more powerful than this "+25% effectiveness, +50% duration" thing. While these numbers are true for Necromage - Vampirism, also true for duration and effectiveness in terms of level against Undead enemies, they are false (in a positive way) when causing magic damage to Undead enemies.

  I could not come up with formulas (although I tried), but I did not find out how this perk works in terms of damage. I just tested a few spells to see how Necromage modifies them. The test was made on Adept difficulty on a Draugr Wight with no mods. I was very impressed. Let's see the pure numbers:

  Bane of the Undead

  • 69.85 - No Augmented flames, no Necromage - Affected evel: 30
  • 209.28 - Only Necromage - Affected level: 37
  • 104.44 - Only Augmented flames 2/2 - Affected level: 45
  • 318.43 - Both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2 - Affected level: 56

  Vampire's bane:

  • 54.64 - No Augmented flames, no Necromage - Not considered as Fire magic, as Augmented flames has no effect on it, but still, it seems Undead have weakness against it as the description says 40 damage.
  • 109.45 - Only Necromage
  • 109.45 - Both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2
  • Thus we can see this spell is not affected by Augmented flames.

  
  Fireball

  • 71.85 - Only Augmented flames 2/2 - We can say Undead have ~ 20% weakness to fire. (60 x 1.2 = 72, the result is very close to this)
  • 109.89 - Only Necromage
  • 164.66 - Both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2

  I tested Bane of the Undead and Vampire's bane on an Imperial Ancient Vampire too, with both Necromage and Augmented flames 2/2.

  Vampire's bane: Exactly the same as above.

  Bane of the Undead: 429.92!!! - Just think about it...To cast this bastard during the battle in Volkihar castle 

  Note:

  Probably the damage of the Bane of the Undead was so high because of the stages of Vampirism, however I have no info if Vampire NPCs are affected by stages or not. The test was made also during the day and the night. According to UESP the base health of this vampire is 583. In the console command I saw the same number as reference base value and all the modifiers were 0 before I cast any spells. If they were affected by any stage, I assume the health would have been reduced. Or maybe they are affected only by the other effects but not by stat reduction...I don't know, if someone does, any info is welcome 

  So all in all, If you create a mage it is damn woth it to unlock Necromage. This is only one perk and it increases you effectiveness greatly.

  That's all guys, I hope you find this useful.

• SpookyBorn2021

  

  Member
   

  June 19, 2015

  Nice idea to focus on the basics of the Perk. Are you planning on doing testing with other spells and effects or just these ones. Either way good on you for focusing on it's base usage rather then the glitch. 

  Nice idea to focus on the basics of the Perk. Are you planning on doing testing with other spells and effects or just these ones. Either way good on you for focusing on it's base usage rather then the glitch. 

• Golden Fool

  

  Member
   

  June 19, 2015

  So your telling me that there's ways to use this perk without the glitch? 

  So your telling me that there's ways to use this perk without the glitch? 

• Balazs Krekacs

  

  Member
   

  June 19, 2015

  Thanks for the feedback. No, I can do other testings as well if you (or other members) want. :)

  Thanks for the feedback. No, I can do other testings as well if you (or other members) want. :)

• Balazs Krekacs

  

  Member
   

  June 19, 2015

  Yes as you can see the damage difference is huge. Considering that there are tons of undead enemies in the game, and Necromage does not require many perks, especially if you want to go for Restoration anyway for healing, it is definately worth it.

  Yes as you can see the damage difference is huge. Considering that there are tons of undead enemies in the game, and Necromage does not require many perks, especially if you want to go for Restoration anyway for healing, it is definately worth it.

• Teccam

  

  Member
   

  June 21, 2015

  The reason those spells are buffed by more than 25% is probably because they have a taper curve longer than one second. James does a very nice job of explaining the significance of this in his thread on Afterburn and Taper Damage, and his Argument for Fire Storm. Of particular note is the formula he shared, and the "How Necromage Affects Taper Damage" section in the first thread.

  For some reason, not only is the taper duration extended by 50% and the weight augmented by 25% (both reasonably consistent with Necromage's intended effects), but the Taper Curve value is dramatically reduced, which is the main reason damage can effectively double or even more, depending on the spell and other active buffs.

  James doesn't explicitly talk about Vampire's Bane or Bane of the Undead in his threads, but my guess is a quick peek into the Creation Kit would confirm that both have 2.0 second Taper durations, just like Fireball. I'd check right now, but unfortunately I'm just about to step out for the day.

  Fire Storm, as James's thread outlines, can break the bank far more than these other spells, because it has a whopping 4.0 second taper duration. You can get to a point where, if all of Fire Storm's effects (there are multiple) hit a single undead enemy, you'll do over 3,000 damage with one spell.

  It'd be cool if we could try to consolidate a list of all spells with taper durations greater than 1.0 second, to optimize the utility for this knowledge. I know James was planning on making a "Part III" that would've revolved around Auriel's Bow with Sunhallowed Arrows, so that might be a good place to begin....

  For the record, there are a few builds that were influenced by James's taper discussion. I believe Phil has one, Curse and/or Raid as well IIRC, one or two others I'm totally blanking on, and also the Sapiarch which Kaiser and I put out a few months back.

  The reason those spells are buffed by more than 25% is probably because they have a taper curve longer than one second. James does a very nice job of explaining the significance of this in his thread on Afterburn and Taper Damage, and his Argument for Fire Storm. Of particular note is the formula he shared, and the "How Necromage Affects Taper Damage" section in the first thread.

  For some reason, not only is the taper duration extended by 50% and the weight augmented by 25% (both reasonably consistent with Necromage's intended effects), but the Taper Curve value is dramatically reduced, which is the main reason damage can effectively double or even more, depending on the spell and other active buffs.

  James doesn't explicitly talk about Vampire's Bane or Bane of the Undead in his threads, but my guess is a quick peek into the Creation Kit would confirm that both have 2.0 second Taper durations, just like Fireball. I'd check right now, but unfortunately I'm just about to step out for the day.

  Fire Storm, as James's thread outlines, can break the bank far more than these other spells, because it has a whopping 4.0 second taper duration. You can get to a point where, if all of Fire Storm's effects (there are multiple) hit a single undead enemy, you'll do over 3,000 damage with one spell.

  It'd be cool if we could try to consolidate a list of all spells with taper durations greater than 1.0 second, to optimize the utility for this knowledge. I know James was planning on making a "Part III" that would've revolved around Auriel's Bow with Sunhallowed Arrows, so that might be a good place to begin....

  For the record, there are a few builds that were influenced by James's taper discussion. I believe Phil has one, Curse and/or Raid as well IIRC, one or two others I'm totally blanking on, and also the Sapiarch which Kaiser and I put out a few months back.

• Raid

  

  Member
   

  July 1, 2015

  Hey Balaz! If you're looking to compile a list of spells/items affected by Necromage then I'd definitely look into Dawnbreaker and Auriel's Bow w/ Sunhallowed Arrows. James seemed to think they were affected somehow (Dawnbreaker definitely, as it uses a Bane of the Undead effect). I for one would love it if you could shed some light on these misunderstood weapons.

  Hey Balaz! If you're looking to compile a list of spells/items affected by Necromage then I'd definitely look into Dawnbreaker and Auriel's Bow w/ Sunhallowed Arrows. James seemed to think they were affected somehow (Dawnbreaker definitely, as it uses a Bane of the Undead effect). I for one would love it if you could shed some light on these misunderstood weapons.