Justiciar Thorien said:
As I have said before, I believe that all souls are et'Ada, just some are more powerful than others. Every soul has a purpose in the Dream of Anu and thus, every soul affects the Creation, even if it's in a very subtle way. A more powerful soul, naturally, affects it stronger, and it can add much more power to an aspect of a deity or maybe even become a new aspect unto itself? It is quite apparent (especially if we look at the Aldmeri pantheon) that to be a god one doesn't really need to achieve CHIM or create Dragon Breaks. What makes a soul into a god is the impact that soul has made on in the world. Of course nothing can make a larger impact than the creation of the world itself, thus there are and will be no gods greater than the Aedra, but lesser deities can be followed too, why not.
I don't think that's far off from how I see it, Thorien :) Are mortal souls et'ada, though? That is one way of looking at it, I mean they are subgradients of et'ada after all. Yet that term is more often used to describe the original spirits who were the first subgradients to coalesce after time and space gave them room to. Regardless, it's a minor thing and your ppoint of view is rather like the Psijic's own.
I think the word "god" is what trips many of us up when trying to define it, and the Psijics disregard that in a nice and simple manner. Is a god something that has agency and an ability to perform miracles? is a god something that can bestow blessings upon a worshipper? Or is a god simply something that has someone call it such? "When someone asks if you're a god, you say "yes!" :D
So I think for me that if we imagine Loremaster Cel on his deathbed and watching his soul rise to Aetherius, we can devise a better thought experiment:
We already know his spirit is laden with magicka. For a mortal, it's a pretty massive and hefty soul. But he doesn't believe in a single Divine, or even multiple. He believes that the gods and demons are much like himself, and we can quote his own words now: "The Daedra and gods to whom the common people turn are no more than the spirits of superior men and women whose power and passion granted them great influence in the afterworld."
So he floats up to the spirit-realm, and all around him are these big planets sitting on that magickal fabric. Over there is Arkay, looking nice and plump, and right there is a positively Jupitan structure called Dibella by some, and she's gaining weight in all the right places thanks to all those who performs acts in her name!
But nobody is performing acts in Ceruval Celarus' name. He sits upon that fabric like a big spirit by virtue of his own mass of magicka.
Is he now a god? If yes, can he perform miracles and influence Mundus?
If no, what would be the thing missing to make him a god? Worshippers?
What if I started a Cult of Celarus and converted lots of people to a belief system attributed to him? Would their souls go to him upon death, their aligned AE? What if my cult became so successful that he became so fat on souls as to dwarf even the mighty Kynareth in mass?
Or does he just sit there, a large and great spirit with enough presence to influence the underworld but not actually what anyone would consider divine? He has a big influence on that underworld fabric but little in our world unless we know how to look for him?
That's the thought experiment, and it's one I believe has no right or wrong answer.
Justiciar Thorien said:
Sovngarde indeed does seem like it is some kind of a demiplane rather than located in either Aetherius or Oblivion. Lorkhan is an odd fellow after all. Special tresures, huh? Looks more like an army for that final battle (a battle between who and who exactly, btw? We don't see other Aedra gathering armies...).
Yeah, I'm really uncertain about the Lorkhan realm. We're told just about everywhere that it is in Aetherius, but I think that's just a simplification of something very complex going on. He's the missing god, you know? Aetherius both does and does not make sense. I'd love it if it were a half and half sort of thing, like his realm sits right on the divide between mortality, Oblivion, and Aetherius - the very cusp of a waterfall. But I honestly don't know.
The final battle in Nord myth is versus the World-Eater, I think. That's their cultural doom. Iirc, the guys in Sovngarde mention how they're itching to join you in the field but Shor had bade them stay put. The time simply hasn't come this time around yet. The reason why no other gods we can give an easy example of building armies to is probably because it is so tied to the cultural beliefs of the people. Like, nobody believes Mara has an army ready to fight and die again at the end of time - it's not a belief ascribed to her, nor is the idea that the World-Eater will eat the world at the end of time often seen anywhere outside of Nordic myth. That's not to say the Redguards don't have their own parallel, though. Maybe they too would have something similar?
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]
As I have said before, I believe that all souls are et'Ada, just some are more powerful than others. Every soul has a purpose in the Dream of Anu and thus, every soul affects the Creation, even if it's in a very subtle way. A more powerful soul, naturally, affects it stronger, and it can add much more power to an aspect of a deity or maybe even become a new aspect unto itself? It is quite apparent (especially if we look at the Aldmeri pantheon) that to be a god one doesn't really need to achieve CHIM or create Dragon Breaks. What makes a soul into a god is the impact that soul has made on in the world. Of course nothing can make a larger impact than the creation of the world itself, thus there are and will be no gods greater than the Aedra, but lesser deities can be followed too, why not.
[/blockquote]
I don't think that's far off from how I see it, Thorien :) Are mortal souls et'ada, though? That is one way of looking at it, I mean they are subgradients of et'ada after all. Yet that term is more often used to describe the original spirits who were the first subgradients to coalesce after time and space gave them room to. Regardless, it's a minor thing and your ppoint of view is rather like the Psijic's own.
I think the word "god" is what trips many of us up when trying to define it, and the Psijics disregard that in a nice and simple manner. Is a god something that has agency and an ability to perform miracles? is a god something that can bestow blessings upon a worshipper? Or is a god simply something that has someone call it such? "When someone asks if you're a god, you say "yes!" :D
So I think for me that if we imagine Loremaster Cel on his deathbed and watching his soul rise to Aetherius, we can devise a better thought experiment:
We already know his spirit is laden with magicka. For a mortal, it's a pretty massive and hefty soul. But he doesn't believe in a single Divine, or even multiple. He believes that the gods and demons are much like himself, and we can quote his own words now: "The Daedra and gods to whom the common people turn are no more than the spirits of superior men and women whose power and passion granted them great influence in the afterworld."
So he floats up to the spirit-realm, and all around him are these big planets sitting on that magickal fabric. Over there is Arkay, looking nice and plump, and right there is a positively Jupitan structure called Dibella by some, and she's gaining weight in all the right places thanks to all those who performs acts in her name!
But nobody is performing acts in Ceruval Celarus' name. He sits upon that fabric like a big spirit by virtue of his own mass of magicka.
Is he now a god? If yes, can he perform miracles and influence Mundus?
If no, what would be the thing missing to make him a god? Worshippers?
What if I started a Cult of Celarus and converted lots of people to a belief system attributed to him? Would their souls go to him upon death, their aligned AE? What if my cult became so successful that he became so fat on souls as to dwarf even the mighty Kynareth in mass?
Or does he just sit there, a large and great spirit with enough presence to influence the underworld but not actually what anyone would consider divine? He has a big influence on that underworld fabric but little in our world unless we know how to look for him?
That's the thought experiment, and it's one I believe has no right or wrong answer.
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/JusticiarThorien]Justiciar Thorien[/url] said:[/b]
Sovngarde indeed does seem like it is some kind of a demiplane rather than located in either Aetherius or Oblivion. Lorkhan is an odd fellow after all. Special tresures, huh? Looks more like an army for that final battle (a battle between who and who exactly, btw? We don't see other Aedra gathering armies...).
[/blockquote]
Yeah, I'm really uncertain about the Lorkhan realm. We're told just about everywhere that it is in Aetherius, but I think that's just a simplification of something very complex going on. He's the missing god, you know? Aetherius both does and does not make sense. I'd love it if it were a half and half sort of thing, like his realm sits right on the divide between mortality, Oblivion, and Aetherius - the very cusp of a waterfall. But I honestly don't know.
The final battle in Nord myth is versus the World-Eater, I think. That's their cultural doom. Iirc, the guys in Sovngarde mention how they're itching to join you in the field but Shor had bade them stay put. The time simply hasn't come this time around yet. The reason why no other gods we can give an easy example of building armies to is probably because it is so tied to the cultural beliefs of the people. Like, nobody believes Mara has an army ready to fight and die again at the end of time - it's not a belief ascribed to her, nor is the idea that the World-Eater will eat the world at the end of time often seen anywhere outside of Nordic myth. That's not to say the Redguards don't have their own parallel, though. Maybe they too would have something similar?
