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Lore Article: The Importance of Talos

Tags: #Phil  #Lore: Historical Figures  #Lore: Metaphysics 
  • Member
    December 31, 2015

    @ Thorien, I have to break this reply chain and start a new one as it is getting too long to reply to. Most of what you said is perfectly reasonable so please understand I am not arguing with you here

    It seems more like Lorkhan's heart should have lay there.

    As for the Amulet of Kings, well, Akatosh took a shard of his soul (his life force) and made the Amulet with it. The same (or nearly same) way as he created the dragon souls.

    This is the very thing, see? The heart of a Shezarrine should have lain there but instead it is proposed that a "red rage shaped diamond fashion" was there instead. This red diamond is the Amulet of Kings, which as you pointed out, came from Akatosh. So what does it mean when a Shezarrine has Akatosh's blood in him and refers to that god as his "other half"?  It's just a small piece of evidence that fits the theory but doesn't prove anything but still is interesting to think about.

    I see it is that Lorkhan is not exactly the Space God, he is rather the god that makes the other gods create space. I.e., as the other gods are order, static, Lorkhan is chaos, the power that makes the order to rearrange itself, and in the process the space - the world - is created. It correlates perfectly with the Creation Myth, isn't it?

    This means that the difference in the elven and human versions of the Creation Myth doesn't matter (I'm talking about whether Lorkhan tricked or convinced the gods to create Mundus), for these versions only express different feelings of people about the Creation. The fact, though, is that the very presence of Lorkhan, his very being, is what forced the gods to create the world.

    This is spot on. Lorkhan is a sub-gradient (a rung down on the ladder) from Sithis which in turn is a sub-gradient of Padomay. These three entities are forces of change except only Lorkhan has a personality rather than just being primeval. So what your saying cannot be challenged apart from the first bit because we can draw parallels with our own big bang  - remember, that's all the Monomyth is just a collection of myths from the various cultures which try to explain their presence on Nirn. Because these conclusions are almost universally similar it is called the Mono (one) Myth.

    If we compare the myths to our own big bang we can start exploring what the nature of these gods are. So Lorkhan could act as a Higgs Boson of a sort or be the impetus which disturbs the infinite density and temperature at time 0. What I am saying is that Lorkhan can be both Space and a force for change.

    That's actually why Akatosh can create other entities like dragons and Dragonborns with his power - because he has his heart in place, while Lorkhan can only reincarnate as one Shezzarine at a time.

    I think it is a mistake to think of Akatosh creating stuff. Shalidor's Insights offers the best description in my mind:

    "Dragons have existed since the beginning of Time, as some kind of kindred spirits to (crossed out text) -- ???? & lesser relation to him or his children or part of him that split off when Time began or ---

    This will allget very complicated very quickly but whenever someone like Arngeir says something like "Akatosh blessed you with the soul of a dragon" to me doesn't mean that exactly but is a simple way of explaining a rather complex dynamic, It is short hand for saying "time has ordained" or "you were fated."

    (You never answered my question whether a mer Shezzarine is possible, haha))

    Does that mean I have failed somehow?

    No. Only that you (and anyone else, as it seems) don't want to talk about it for some reason. So I wonder why, is it from the lack of information, or people just find the idea absurd, or why else.

    The problem with this is that there is no data. The reason Shezarrine keep popping up throughout history is because of that early Schism between elves and men. It is a riff in the music of Tamriel that keeps popping up. Because of this mythical reenactment Sheazarrines are human because that is how humans tell the story and so far we have only seen their side of it.

    Yet Lorkhaj appears in the Khajiiti myths too and mirrors mankind's version as a being "doomed to walk Nirn for many phases." It stands to reason, then, that the Khajiit have their own Shezarrine's who, naturally, would be cats. Yet until we know nothing about this so can only speculate.

    Also, the Shezarrines are very much tied to the story of the culture and its place in time. For the ancient Nords, having Wulfarth as anything other than a Nord would not have made sense to them. For Pelinal to be an Argonian to the Cyrods would not have made sense etc. etc. Yet all those are historical accounts and no longer reflect the time. In the Third Era Talos united Tamriel under one empire. If a Shezarrine appeared in that time frame (which many believe happened as the PC is considered a Shezarrine in that theory) then the Shezarrine need not be man only.

    So it's best to think of Shezarrines not as agents of Lorkhan fighting for man but rather agents of the story, memes if you like, reinforcing  or ending whatever part of the story is relevant at the rime.

    Are merish shezarrines possible? Yes. TLD is almost certainly a Shezarrine by virtue of the fact that the Ghost of Old Hroldan can see you as Hjalti. As TLD can be of any race, then any race can be a Shezarrine. If you still dispute the Hjalti/Ghost thing then there is nothing that will change your mind.

  • December 31, 2015

    This will allget very complicated very quickly but whenever someone like Arngeir says something like "Akatosh blessed you with the soul of a dragon" to me doesn't mean that exactly but is a simple way of explaining a rather complex dynamic, It is short hand for saying "time has ordained" or "you were fated."

    I'll take that explanation and the real literal soul too, thank you very much.  I personally have no problem with the concept of a literal soul being gifted and with that soul being used and reused, and reused as seen fit. 

  • December 31, 2015

    The red diamond can just mean a heart, whether be it of Akatosh or of Lorkhan. As to why a Shezzarine calls Akatosh his other half I have already said - because he is actually Lorkhan.

    I don't know anything about Higgs Boson and other science things, such a dumb blonde I am. But I have a feeling that Lorkhan being a god of both chage and space would be kinda weird with his personality. Also, Mundus is still different from our world even if we leave the myths aside. And I wonder, with Akatosh and Lorkhan being two halves, there foes it plce the other gods and especially Magnus?

    his children or part of him that split off when Time began

    Well, even if they aren't children (I'd say 'children' is a metaphor) but parts of him, they are still not incarnations like the Shezzarines are. And every Dragon has his own personality as well as every Dragonborn. And the Shezzarines seem pretty much like one person reincarnated.

    Oh, and what actually is fate in TES world??

    Yet Lorkhaj appears in the Khajiiti myths too and mirrors mankind's version as a being "doomed to walk Nirn for many phases." 

    Exactly, no data. Which makes me think that all of the Shezzarines were indeed human. That those we see myths about are the only ones. I feel that a non-human Shezzarine is unlikely. Lorkhan and the elven race feel somehow... incompatible, can't find better word. Same with Khajiit and Argonian.

    I never argued about the fact ht the ghost confuses the LDB for Hjalti, he definitely does. I just don't think that Hjalti was a Shezzarine either, at least until the whole Mantella thing.

    And I don't have a problem with a soul being reused eiher, as well as with the literal soul. The description of a soul from Kyrielle's article is pretty believable, no?

  • Member
    December 31, 2015

    The red diamond can just mean a heart, whether be it of Akatosh or of Lorkhan.

    The Red Diamond is the very symbol of the Empire because it stands for The Amulet of Kings. The game TES Oblivion was based around the Covenant Akatosh made with Alessia. That Pelinal's chest had a red hole the shape of a diamond is no coincidence at all. Otherwise it may as well be a banana and utterly useless in it's inclusion in the Song.

    I don't know anything about Higgs Boson and other science things, such a dumb blonde I am. But I have a feeling that Lorkhan being a god of both chage and space would be kinda weird with his personality. Also, Mundus is still different from our world even if we leave the myths aside. And I wonder, with Akatosh and Lorkhan being two halves, there foes it plce the other gods and especially Magnus?

    You aren't dumb, Thorien. I won't pretend to be an expert either but over time the parallels between real world physics and TES myth become more and more obvious. The subject of Lorkhan, Akatosh and the nature of the Aurbis long ago veered off topic but I would very much like to revit it in another, more suitable place. If you have a discussion in mind where we discuss this in one place, please feel free to post

    And every Dragon has his own personality as well as every Dragonborn. And the Shezzarines seem pretty much like one person reincarnated.

    Not necessarily true. Each Shezarrine appears to have his own personality exactly like a Dragonborn. It is only really Wulfharth that has any sort of self awareness of his true nature. The speculation that the payer character is always a Shezarrine holds a great deal of water as it mirrors the action of the Shezarrines arriving suddenly to wreck/save shit only to disappear mysteriously after the events. If true, the Hero of each game is exactly as aware of her status as a reincarnation as the player herself. Things get meta very quickly when you let that sink in.

    Exactly, no data. Which makes me think that all of the Shezzarines were indeed human. That those we see myths about are the only ones. Lorkhan and the elven race feel somehow... incompatible, can't find better word. Same with Khajiit and Argonian.

    That's pretty much because the only games who's mythic stories we've seen echoed are Oblivion and Skyrim. Yet if the Hero = Shezarrine theory is true, then the Neravarine was also a Shezarrine and  that'd be really funny if you named him Wolverine.

    The reason you have trouble seeing an Elven Shezarrine is because you have been prejudiced by the Cyrodiilic, Nordic and Altmeri myths which are all very similar. There is absolutely no reason why they should be considered any more valid than the Yokudan, Argonian and Khajiiti myths. To think otherwise is ludicrous, as is thinking Akatosh or Lorkhan are biased towards a particular race.

    I never argued about the fact ht the ghost confuses the LDB for Hjalti, he definitely does. I just don't think that Hjalti was a Shezzarine either, at least until the whole Mantella thing.

    But that's the thing! How could some random ghost of some random soldier recognise you as Hjalti? We know it can't be because she's Dragonborn otherwise every npc or spirit we come across would instinctively recognise you as such. Only dragons  (Durnehviir's dialogue), other Dragonborns (Miraak's dialogue) or those trained to do so like Arngeir have that ability. So how do we explain the random soldier from the second era who sees you as Hjalti? It can only be because both you and Hjalti are Shezarrine and share the same spirit.

  • December 31, 2015

    The Red Diamond is the very symbol of the Empire because it stands for The Amulet of Kings. The game TES Oblivion was based around the Covenant Akatosh made with Alessia. That Pelinal's chest had a red hole the shape of a diamond is no coincidence at all.

    To be honest, I don't really know what to think about this hole in the chest matter. It seems to me a metaphor of some kind, because, you know, if he had a literal hole in his chest, doesn't that mean he was undead? He was also a knight of the same Empire the red diamond is symbol of.

    Each Shezarrine appears to have his own personality exactly like a Dragonborn. 

    Well, I don't know about the rest, but Pelinal and Wulfhart seem like identical twins to me. I even thought they are one and yhe same at first. Also Pelinal's words about Akatosh implies that he was quite self-aware, at least some part of him.

     the Hero of each game is exactly as aware of her status as a reincarnation as the player herself.

    If, again, we take that Shezzarine=Dragonborn, then that doesn't work at least with one PC - the Champion of Cyrodiil. Because if he was a Dragonborn, the whole Martin story would be pointless, so it seems that he wasn't.

    then the Neravarine was also a Shezarrine

    That would be extremely weird, because it would mean that Indoril Nerevar was a Shezzarine as well. Oh, and also a Dragonborn? O.o

    you have been prejudiced by the Cyrodiilic, Nordic and Altmeri myths which are all very similar. There is absolutely no reason why they should be considered any more valid than the Yokudan, Argonian and Khajiiti myths. 

    Perhaps, but is there something resembling the Shezzarines or the Dragonborns in any of those myths? I don't say they aren't valid, they just don't have this subject. Or did I miss something?

    How could some random ghost of some random soldier recognise you as Hjalti? We know it can't be because she's Dragonborn otherwise every npc or spirit we come across would instinctively recognise you as such. 

    How many ghosts you encounter across Skyrim did actually meet Hjalti? How many of them met any Dragonborn besides Hjalti and the PC?

    And that ghost, is he really random? Since he lived in second era, he'd probably known Hjalti. And the PC and Hjalti do share the same spirit, at least partly, whether they are Shezzarine or not - they are anyway both Dragonborn.

    Oh, and what about Reman and Alessia? Were they also Shezzarines?

  • Member
    December 31, 2015

    Alessia was a Dragonborn, but not A Dragonborn, from what I recall, wasn't Akatosh her lover or something, or at least quite close to her? And I think she had some special ability, but not the Voice. 

  • Member
    January 1, 2016

    To be honest, I don't really know what to think about this hole in the chest matter. It seems to me a metaphor of some kind

    Exactly! A metaphor. Lorkhan's heart was ripped out of his chest by Trinimac in one myth (voluntarily given up in another, etc). Then Pelly, the avatar of Lorkhan, shows up with a missing heart, a heart whose hole looks just like Akatosh's which he gave to Alessia. If heart, blood and soul can be used interchangeably what does that metaphor tell us?

    Well, I don't know about the rest, but Pelinal and Wulfhart seem like identical twins to me. I even thought they are one and yhe same at first. Also Pelinal's words about Akatosh implies that he was quite self-aware, at least some part of him.

    Some part or all of Pelinal, you are correct.

    If, again, we take that Shezzarine=Dragonborn, then that doesn't work at least with one PC - the Champion of Cyrodiil. Because if he was a Dragonborn, the whole Martin story would be pointless, so it seems that he wasn't.

    Remember, I am not saying Dragonborn = Shezarrine, only TLD = Shezarrine like Hjalti before her and Pelinal too, maybe. The CoC being a Shezarrine works pretty well: Remember the line in Varieties of Faith:

    Sheogorath is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the 'Sithis-shaped hole' of the world.

    The CoC mantled Sheogorath and became him.  Circumstantial evidence but compelling. The "Sithis-shaped hole" reaffirms his existence against the Daedric prince's curse. Yet you are correct, there is no way the CoC was Dragonborn.

    Perhaps, but is there something resembling the Shezzarines or the Dragonborns in any of those myths? I don't say they aren't valid, they just don't have this subject. Or did I miss something?

    You have missed nothing. We don't know their myths like we do the others. The only reason we know so much about Morrowind is because there was a game set there. All we can do is infer the presence of similar mythic figures because of the Monomyth - the riffs in the music should be similar down through the gradients from whichever cultural lens you view it from.

    How many ghosts you encounter across Skyrim did actually meet Hjalti? How many of them met any Dragonborn besides Hjalti and the PC?

    That's pretty confusing. The ghost recognises you as Hjalti not because you are Dragonborn but because you look like his old friend and battle companion from Alcaire. The only way that can happen is if you share Hjati's soul. We know Dragonborn do not share the same soul in the most technical sense but we do know that Shezarrines do. Surely there is only one conclusion?

    Basically, if the ghost of Old Hroldan met Miraak, he wouldn't say "hello Hjalti" because Miraak is not a Shezarrine. What you're saying is that the ghost would say just that.

    Oh, and what about Reman and Alessia? Were they also Shezzarines?

    Tough one. I'd say Alessia no, Reman quite possibly. Reman is like a proto-Talos to some extent and became a Hero-God of the Cyrodiils.

    Pelinal called out Haromir of Copper and Tea into a duel at the Tor, and ate his neck-veins while screaming praise to Reman, a name that no one knew yet.

    Pelinal is blatantly calling out to his future self. The Prophet of Anvil who is quite possibly Talos himself, quotes from the Remanada:

    AM CYRODIIL COME, he said, Old Reman, born from the earth that IS Al-Esh, and yet he would scorn this country now! Repent! I say again, REPENT! The blood of Dibella's slaughtered acolytes cries out for vengeance. Vengeance! Who will take up this holy crusade? Love and Mercy! Do you still think me mad? Who shall next fall to Umaril's bloody revenge? The Eight And One require a champion, a Divine Crusader reborn. Pelinal Whitestrake

    In fact it is all there.

  • Member
    January 1, 2016

    That's an annoyance I conveniently ignore. The idea of Alessia being a Dragonborn but of a different sort than Skyrim's Dragonborn comes from an MK quote I reject.

  • Member
    January 1, 2016

    Really? Huh, I never knew that. Anyway, is Pelinal actually crazy, was he in some sort of "battle madness?" Is being some sort of immortal demigod like being with a fractured temporal deity screwing with his mind?

  • Member
    January 1, 2016

    Kirkbride said:

    "Alessia didn't have the power to absorb dragon souls. Hers was a much more nuanced power: to dream of liberty and give it a name and on her deathbed make Covenant with the Aka-Tusk."

    To me it muddies the waters. Why make there be a difference between Dragonborn in addition to the fact that the Emperors had no dragons to slay? I agree with the blessing being bestowed on her deathbed but little else.

    Is being some sort of immortal demigod like being with a fractured temporal deity screwing with his mind?

    I guess so bud. That is pure speculation. I can give you MK's quote on that if it helps?

    Re: Pelinal, his closest mythical model would be Gilgamesh, with a dash of a T-800 thrown in, and a full-serving of brain-fracture slaughterhouse antinomial (Kill)3 functions stuck in his hand or head. We tend to forgive those heroes.

    And thousands of years of Good Coming From Bad, and/or whitewash, ignorance, shame, his Song being read by the Knights merely as fancy rather than right record, etc, might explain the Order's reluctance to villify or apologize for him. Plus, no one wants to gets smothered in their sleep by moths.

    That said, I sure would like to read the story of Alkosh whooping Pelinal's ass back to Cyrod when the Whitestrake's pogroms strayed too far into the Dragon-Cat's land.