Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Lore Article: The Importance of Talos

Tags: #Phil  #Lore: Historical Figures  #Lore: Metaphysics 
  • Member
    December 31, 2015

    The cave, a metaphor for ignorance and knowledge. Hmm, nice one Lis

  • Member
    December 31, 2015

    Sorry to have left this debate, been very busy with work.

    It doesn't mean that he has a dragon soul.

    I like this line from the Song of Pelinal:

    Still others, like Fifd of New Teed, say that beneath the Pelina;'sstar-armor was a chest that gaped open to show no heart, only a red rage shaped diamond-fashion, singing like a mindless dragon,

    Compare that to this from the Trials of St Alessia: 

    Akatosh made a covenant with Alessia in those days so long ago. He gathered the tangled skeins of Oblivion, and knit them fast with the bloody sinews of his Heart, and gave them to Alessia, saying, 'This shall be my token to you, that so long as your blood and oath hold true, yet so shall my blood and oath be true to you. This token shall be the Amulet of Kings,

    Do you follow my reasoning? The heart seems to be the home of the soul in TES and the soul is often described as blood ( dragon-blooded). So heart/soul/blood, there seems to be a connection there. Pelinal the Sezarrine could have had an empty hole where Akatosh's heart once lay.

    You are right about that, but... there did the idea that Lorkhan is space come from?

    Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle?

    is it any wonder that the Time God would hate the same-twin on the other end of the aurbrilical cord, the Space God?

    While a Dragonborn is not an incarnation of Akatosh himself, but another entity created from his power, something like a child (just like a dragon). There are many dragon souls,

    It's almost tempting to spot a theme of Akatosh regaining his shattered soul in the last two games. He blessed Alessia with the soul of a dragon on her deathbed according to legend. This soul became the central gem in the Aok. Many other Dragonborn added their souls over time until Martin breaks the stone and releases a massive dragon. Fast forward 200 years and a Dragonbron is going around absorbing the souls of a multitude of dragons into his own. See, I think the idea of dragons being "children" of Akatosh is just a metaphor.

    Since the Nords used to worship dragons and view a dragon as the strongest creature (just like we say a lion is the king of animals), it seems very likely that they might call someone powerful, a hero, a dragon. It doesn't mean that he was a literal one)) Or that he had a literal soul of one either.

    In TES lore, mythopoeia shapes reality and the gods. Indeed, an in-game book suggests that very idea. If gods can be shaped by worship and belief, why not mythic figures too?

    And besides all of this, the whole concept of Dragonborn=Shezzarine seems wrong to me from a few more perspectives. For instance, with all the Dragonborns and Shezzarines being humans, there does that place the elves?

    I don't understand the question. Who says TlD was human?

    (You never answered my question whether a mer Shezzarine is possible, haha))

    Does that mean I have somehow failed?

  • December 31, 2015

    Pelinal the Sezarrine could have had an empty hole where Akatosh's heart once lay.

    It seems more like Lorkhan's heart should have lay there.

    As for the Amulet of Kings, well, Akatosh took a shard of his soul (his life force) and made the Amulet with it. The same (or nearly same) way as he created the dragon souls.

    is it any wonder that the Time God would hate the same-twin on the other end of the aurbrilical cord, the Space God?

    Oh, this one made me think very hard, lol, but I find, that this doesn't defeat my theory, only solidifies it)) I don't know what Kirkbride was thinking as he wrote this, but the way I see it is that Lorkhan is not exactly the Space God, he is rather the god that makes the other gods create space. I.e., as the other gods are order, static, Lorkhan is chaos, the power that makes the order to rearrange itself, and in the process the space - the world - is created. It correlates perfectly with the Creation Myth, isn't it?

    This means that the difference in the elven and human versions of the Creation Myth doesn't matter (I'm talking about whether Lorkhan tricked or convinced the gods to create Mundus), for these versions only express different feelings of people about the Creation. The fact, though, is that the very presence of Lorkhan, his very being, is what forced the gods to create the world.

    Then, after the world is created, it's not the end of the story, because, again, Lorkhan's presence is the power of change that makes the Creation (the world) constantly rearrange itself, which means chaos and destruction in the world. That's why Auri-El & Co take his heart (his soul, his life force) from him, and leave him to reincarnate again and again as a mortal - now the change he causes is not so drastic.

    That's actually why Akatosh can create other entities like dragons and Dragonborns with his power - because he has his heart in place, while Lorkhan can only reincarnate as one Shezzarine at a time.

    This soul became the central gem in the Aok. Many other Dragonborn added their souls over time until Martin breaks the stone and releases a massive dragon. Fast forward 200 years and a Dragonbron is going around absorbing the souls of a multitude of dragons into his own. See, I think the idea of dragons being "children" of Akatosh is just a metaphor.

    It seems that the reason why a Dragonborn absorbs dragon souls is that the shards of life force that Akatosh placed in them tend to merge by their nature. That's why the souls of other Dragonborns (if they all were really Dragonborns is another discussion) were absorbed in the Amulet.

    Akatosh regaining his shattered soul

    The thing is that it's his life force part of the soul that is shattered, not the personality part. Every one of those parts has a personality of its own. So when a Dragonborn (or even a dragon, but it might differ for dragons) dies, the personality part goes wherever it goes (the Dreamsleeve, Sovngarde, etc.) and the life force returns to it's original owner, unless it merges with another piece of the same life force. That makes me wonder thogh, if a dragon kills another dragon, does he absorb the soul too??

    If gods can be shaped by worship and belief, why not mythic figures too?

    Because mythic figures are mortals. At the time we speak about Wulfhart wasn't really a god. He was an incarnation of a god, but he was a mortal man in a mortal body. I suspect, that even if every single Nord believed that he grew wings and a tail, it still wouldn't happen)))

    I don't understand the question. Who says TlD was human?

    No one. But all the Shezzarines were human. So there is a pattern, so if the LDB is a Shezzarine, he would be a human most probably.

    Does that mean I have somehow failed?

    No. Only that you (and anyone else, as it seems) don't want to talk about it for some reason. So I wonder why, is it from the lack of information, or people just find the idea absurd, or why else.

  • December 31, 2015

    *goes and reads about the cave*

    Whoa, that gives the hole subject an entirely new meaning. Even several meanings I'd say...

    Looks like all of Skyrim is in the cave, lol)

  • December 31, 2015

    Sort of ties in the DLCs, I think, rather well too. 

  • December 31, 2015

    *smiles as she sips her freshly made New Year's Eggnog*

  • December 31, 2015

    Oh, you want me to embarass myself once more? Oook, this will be never the first nor the last time)

    *prepares to write another big wall of text*

  • December 31, 2015

    Alduin being an instrument of destruction... The question is what he is trying to destroy? What is his real goal? Does he really want to destroy the world or just to resurrect the dragon cult and be worshipped as a god? 

    I have a feeling that the literal destruction he causes (the dragons attacking cities) is not the matter here. What else he destroys? I only can think about the souls in Sovngarde...

    The souls... The Stone of Skyrim the Snow Tower is the souls of its people?

    No big wall of text, hehe) I could continue the same idea to Miraak and the civil war, but I've probably already made enough of a fool out of myself, lol)

  • Tom
    Member
    December 31, 2015

    He's supposed to eat the world to usher in the next. He refused to in the ancient past and sought to rule in Mundus instead. The Tongues threw him outside of time. He didn't experience thousands of years between then and the 4th Era, he went directly between. He wasn't aware of his cult's defeat and the slaying of his fellow dragons. That's why he starts resurrecting them.

    He already ceased to perform his function in destroying the world. Everything he does is to reassert himself as ruler over Tamriel. Causing destruction in carrying out his new goal isn't fulfilling his original purpose.

  • December 31, 2015
    He already ceased to perform his function in destroying the world.

    Hmm... How is that? The world wasn't destroyed.