I always Roleplay mages but mostly Necromancers. I myself am a Bookworm and i love reading about mythology or ancient history or just study a animal or creature. I love Knowledge and im fascinated by magics sheer endless potential, and Necromancy is just to interesting to not fall in love with. ^^ Right now im doing my Necromantic Scholar build who hunts down old draugr artifacts and dwemer constructs. And on the way i read the Ingame Books which are pretty good short storys or very interesting research material. So yes im a Wizard Harry :D 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Legion]Legion[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/ErikUlfrblod]Amadeus Targaryenus[/url] said:[/b]

I have to disagree there are serval villains in movies, books, and other items of the sort that do have restrictions and inner conflict, and most of the time they actually have a plan, unlike the good guy who is good because...well there needs to be a good guy in the story. Good guys tend to be bland and boring with nothing really exciting about them nor interesting, while the villain has a backstory that details why they are the way they are and think the way they do. I do think Marylin Manson said it the best though.

"In any story, the villain is the catalyst. The hero's not a person who will bend the rules or show the cracks in his armor. He's one-dimensional intentionally, but the villain is the person who owns up to what he is and stands by it." 

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Do you know what the context of that quote was? 

Regarding good guys being bland and boring without backstories -- you're consuming the wrong stories. No well-written hero is without conflict and goals. The villain is is actually rarely the catalyst for the story -- the catalyst for stories tends to be that the "hero" (protagonist) wants something and pursues it. The villain becomes an obstacle and acts as the catalyst for the hero to change -- to become whatever is needed overcome the villain.

At least this is how it tends to work in writing. I've always had trouble separating stories from roleplay because there's just so much overlap, but because I think in terms of how I'd write characters, that makes it more difficult to meaningfully roleplay them because the game simply doesn't allow for that much nuance. 

But back on topic, a Paladin can have conflict about what he does. Altruism is incredibly difficult to sustain (if not impossible), so the degree to which the Paladin feels a moral obligation towards altruism, the more or less conflicted he could become. Let's say the Paladin has no qualms about murderstomping the undead; my money says that most people playing such a Paladin would have no qualms also murderstomping bandits. A Paladin that slays only undead because he believes that it's wrong to kill the living could make for a really conflicted character who would be considered a hero by many. 

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Yes, he said talking about his latest album at the time, but it still has a good point.

Not to be rude, but give me one story where the villain isn't the catalyst? I have read plenty of books and seen plenty of movies where the good guy doesn't do anything until the villain does, or until they are needed to full fill some prophecy or something.

At least we can agree on that roleplay and writing stories do overlap.

I do understand the altruism part, but the same could be said about any class really. How would the Paladin justify not killing Bandits who steal, murder, and rape? I see what you are going with about valuing the Living and not the Undead, but bandits tend to break holy laws/commandments of the Divines/Gods your Paladin worships, and so they should no problem even if they value human life.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Vezrabuto]Vezrabuto[/url] said:[/b]

 I always Roleplay mages but mostly Necromancers. I myself am a Bookworm and i love reading about mythology or ancient history or just study a animal or creature. I love Knowledge and im fascinated by magics sheer endless potential, and Necromancy is just to interesting to not fall in love with. ^^ Right now im doing my Necromantic Scholar build who hunts down old draugr artifacts and dwemer constructs. And on the way i read the Ingame Books which are pretty good short storys or very interesting research material. So yes im a Wizard Harry :D 

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Welcome fellow Necromancer. I would have to say that is another reason Mages appeal to me more is that I love to seek new knowledge and figure out how things work, and Mages tend to be more philosophical on their view points because of everything magic can do.

If you need any help on your build as well feel free to send me a PM, though we will have to become friends first in order to do so.

@Amadeus Bolton yeah i would like to run it by a fellow necromancer. its always interesting to see new viewpoints on certain things ^^

Hey hello Amadeos Bolton, nice post. On Skyrim, I usually play as a merchant with economy and merchant mods, he have to defend him self on his travels so he have skills on one-handed, If he must defend by his own, also he is good at speech and good at managing, I like to play also as a Guild Master, with such mods, my character is usually influential on people but just using Speechcraft not Iluision magic (I have considered using Illusion, but I have never did, maybe I will try it when I could play Skyrim again), so he manage a little company of merchant and crafters, he also roleplay as thief stealing from houses and public places, without much risk, then he sell those stuff on other places (hehe), and time to time go for adventures on raids for different places, usually not public places, just abandoned dungeons or facing bandits, then he and his party loot everything and got rewards selling those treasures on the local markets. But what is a manager of a company without showing influence, control and domination?, thats why he play as Necromancer, where he have the opportunity to show his full power and control over his enemies, even making his dead enemies back to life again as a crippled version of them selves to serve him. Talking about roleplay aspects, Necromancy is very important, but is not his main important focus, he uses Necromancy as a way to show over others, specially his enemies, his power and control among them and the power to turn the physical laws of nature at his favor violating them. So Necromancy is the most pure expression of power, control and domination, for this character gameplay.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Vezrabuto]Vezrabuto[/url] said:[/b]

 I always Roleplay mages but mostly Necromancers. I myself am a Bookworm and i love reading about mythology or ancient history or just study a animal or creature. I love Knowledge and im fascinated by magics sheer endless potential, and Necromancy is just to interesting to not fall in love with. ^^ Right now im doing my Necromantic Scholar build who hunts down old draugr artifacts and dwemer constructs. And on the way i read the Ingame Books which are pretty good short storys or very interesting research material. So yes im a Wizard Harry :D 

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Hey, you taking part in the Books and Terminals event? Sounds right up your street, mate! A chance to take that mythology and insert it into Skyrim/TES as a "I wish xyz legend was there" :)

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Legion]Legion[/url] said:[/b]

I do understand the altruism part, but the same could be said about any class really. How would the Paladin justify not killing Bandits who steal, murder, and rape? I see what you are going with about valuing the Living and not the Undead, but bandits tend to break holy laws/commandments of the Divines/Gods your Paladin worships, and so they should no problem even if they value human life.

The Paladin could be a stalwart believer in court-held justice, believing that murder is wrong in every case. It might not be the most rational, but interesting characters shouldn't be entirely rational. And you're right, the same could be said of any class -- that's exactly my point. Every class has as much potential for interesting characterization as the evil class that you've defended. 

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Ok, so now you've gone and hooked me back in. With knights and Paladins I enjoy the lens of culture and how to interpret that in-game. I remember on a build discussion a few years back there was an argument going on that Nords don't have knights in the way a knight is normally depicted. Like, that chivalric code and courtly manner, fighting for his lord or lady and bringing their justice to the land, shining armour and fluttering banners from a lance held aloft etc... While that is true to some extent, the Icelanders had their Riddari of the Chivalric Sagas which were both translations of classic French texts but also their own indigenous writings.

While as roleplayers we can play what we want, I enjoy trying to ground something within the setting and ask myself what a Nordy Nord Knight might be like. Is the Nordic version of a knight in fact a thane? If so, then for said thane/paladin, the task of killing bandits would be an honourable thing to do. However, if I played him as described and less knightly and more paladiny, then there would be an interesting conflict right there as the morality of his faith fights against his oath to his liege. That would be compelling to explore as deliberately not killing the bandits at Valtheim Towers who rob or kill the unwary traveller is certainly not rational. That paladin could be a zealot, then. Zealotry is a good theme in seeing morally grey justified and portrayed as light, as we see with the Vigilants of Stendarr. Rationality has long since given way to something else.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Medieval]Medieval[/url] said:[/b]

Hey hello Amadeos Bolton, nice post. On Skyrim, I usually play as a merchant with economy and merchant mods, he have to defend him self on his travels so he have skills on one-handed, If he must defend by his own, also he is good at speech and good at managing, I like to play also as a Guild Master, with such mods, my character is usually influential on people but just using Speechcraft not Iluision magic (I have considered using Illusion, but I have never did, maybe I will try it when I could play Skyrim again), so he manage a little company of merchant and crafters, he also roleplay as thief stealing from houses and public places, without much risk, then he sell those stuff on other places (hehe), and time to time go for adventures on raids for different places, usually not public places, just abandoned dungeons or facing bandits, then he and his party loot everything and got rewards selling those treasures on the local markets. But what is a manager of a company without showing influence, control and domination?, thats why he play as Necromancer, where he have the opportunity to show his full power and control over his enemies, even making his dead enemies back to life again as a crippled version of them selves to serve him. Talking about roleplay aspects, Necromancy is very important, but is not his main important focus, he uses Necromancy as a way to show over others, specially his enemies, his power and control among them and the power to turn the physical laws of nature at his favor violating them. So Necromancy is the most pure expression of power, control and domination, for this character gameplay.

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Thank you. I just realized I pretty much answered this in your discussion, but this is the character. I am glad you have told more about him in this post as now I have a lot better understanding of the character, and I will give props on using Speech over Illusion because it seems to fit better especially if he is an Imperial. I do like the part of using Necromancy as a way to show power and dominance because that is pretty much the goal of Necromancy. Also, I can't wait for this character now because he seems very interesting and in a way a true Psychopath in a sense.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Legion]Legion[/url] said:[/b]

Yes, he said talking about his latest album at the time, but it still has a good point.

I'll see if I can find it, I like how he thinks. 

Not to be rude, but give me one story where the villain isn't the catalyst? I have read plenty of books and seen plenty of movies where the good guy doesn't do anything until the villain does, or until they are needed to full fill some prophecy or something.

I take it you watch a lot of fantasy? It was my mistake to assume that "villain" could only be a person. The first example that came to my mind was Farenheit 451 where Montag's change as a character is catalyzed by a girl he meets named Clarisse, who is certainly not a villain. The first personified villain in the book could arguably be the dog or Captain Beaty, though I think most would agree that the overarching "villain" is the society in which Montag is living. 

I do understand the altruism part, but the same could be said about any class really. How would the Paladin justify not killing Bandits who steal, murder, and rape? I see what you are going with about valuing the Living and not the Undead, but bandits tend to break holy laws/commandments of the Divines/Gods your Paladin worships, and so they should no problem even if they value human life.

The Paladin could be a stalwart believer in court-held justice, believing that murder is wrong in every case. It might not be the most rational, but interesting characters shouldn't be entirely rational. And you're right, the same could be said of any class -- that's exactly my point. Every class has as much potential for interesting characterization as the evil class that you've defended. 

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Are you a Manson fan, or just a casual listener? I am only curious.

I watch a lot of Fantasy, Horror, Sci-Fi, and Noir/Mystery films. A villain to me can be anything whether it be a person, idea, society, or whatever. I do like that you used Fahrenheit 451 as your example because I love that book and have read it numerous times.

You are right any class can be interesting can interesting, that wasn't my argument, my argument is that good aligned characters are boring and plain. Neutral and Evil character tend to be not as boring to me. I defend evil classes like Necromancer and such because it appeals to me because I have always liked villains for they are almost always more fleshed out than the main hero. A good example of this Darth Vadar and Luke Skywalker. Darth Vadar has a better story and you can understand why he acts like he does while on the other hand, Luke is this destined hero and such.