Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Dagoth-Ur: Bad Guy Or Just Misunderstood?

  • August 25, 2015

    Alright, Phil, that scholarly work really fried all my circuits... That´s some deep shit I will never be able to understand.

    All I was able to think of while I was reading it, was CHIM.

  • Member
    August 25, 2015

    Or in this case the opposite of CHIM? No wait, that would be zero summing... It's a toughy but good fun.

    That picture is awesome!

  • August 25, 2015

    No I think you are right in saying the opposite of CHIM. Zero Summing is more like a failed attempt at CHIM.

  • August 25, 2015

    The idea of Reverse CHIM occured to me too, but because my knowledge of normal CHIM is almost none at all, I don´t even know how I should explain.

    It´s just that all the talk about dreams and dreamers ring some CHIM bells in my head.

    And that picture is really awesome. You have my permission to use it as your Seal of Approval

  • August 25, 2015

    I don't think CHIM is all that hard to understand, I think the real problem is agreeing with the interpretations. 

  • August 25, 2015

    So that article Phil linked mentions this:

    But Dagoth Ur was not at the outside of the Wheel observing the ‘I’ from there. No, he was at the center looking out; and what would you see if you were at the very center of a wheel and looked toward the rim, something resembling an ‘I’ extending forever – a false symbolism for the false dreamer, from the center he would have his viewpoint and his “world of reference” for seeing his false symbolism. And what did Dagoth Ur do before his fall, he attempted to create all his servants “in his flesh, and of his flesh” and controlled their minds as one – so perhaps he was molding the world around him to suite his own ‘I’, making them all ‘A whole World of Him’. As the Cultists said “He is All Things”, or at least he strove to be.

    This one got me really interested...but I don´t understand it at all. Some interpretation even a dumbass like me could understand?

  • August 25, 2015

    Ok so it's symbolism of creation as a wheel. Nirn is the hub or centre, the spokes are the aedra, the spaces between them are the daedra and the rim is Oblivion. Everything outside that is Aetherius. 

    CHIM is taking yourself outside of creation and looking at it as a whole and realizing that it's all one and the same, it's all one entity and nothing is truly free. But then looking at the whole of creation as a wheel it would look like this "O" and if you turned a wheel on it's side it would look like this "I". That I is the secret, it symbolises the individual and if you are strong enough to keep your individuality after seeing all of creation then you will have achived enlightenment or "CHIM".

    What you described above is the opposite of that. Instead of viewing Mundas from outside creation as a wheel, he viewed it from the inside. and if you view a wheel from the inside all you would see is the rim running around you forever, so basically the "I" running forever, as in I Am Everything. So instead of Dagoth retaining his identity apart from creation, he seen himself AS creation itself.   

  • August 25, 2015

    Oh. So he sees himself as creation itself. So It Is basically Reverse CHIM, right?

  • August 25, 2015

    Right. So if we think of creation as the Godhead's dream  CHIM is realizing it's someone else's dream and accepting that fact but also maintaining your self identity as the "I". But with Dagoth-Ur seeing it as "I am Everything" he knows that creation is a dream but thinks it's all HIS dream.  

  • August 25, 2015

    "He´s dead but he dreams of being alive." That´s something one of the Ashlanders said.

    So the creation is a dream, Dagoth Ur knows it´s a dream, he thinks it´s his dream but how does this part fits in? That he dreams of being alive?