Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions


Daedra Dossier: Mehrunes Dagon

  • Tim
    Member
    August 25, 2015

    Alright, thanks Phil. . . I remember I used to get into lore, but then I saw some of the more complex stuff on here and I thought: damn...I had no idea lore in TES could get that complex. I should probably stop reading about it while I can still comprehend it :D

  • Member
    August 25, 2015

    Eating it in small helpings is the trick I think. Even then some of it is incomprehensible Look at the Yokudan lore for example: I cannot for the life of me figure out who's who in that pantheon.Yet at the same time it doesn't matter that there are no clear parallels in some cases as it reminds us we are dealing with almost a living world with people who have their own cultures and beliefs rather than a game world with an encyclopedic codex.

    Trying to digest some of the heavy stuff all at once can be very frustrating but by tackling the fundamentals and forming an understanding of the themes over a period of time makes the deep lore much more accessible.

    I think Vaaljorn is working on a lore fundamentals project in the hopes of making lore more accessible. If you have any ideas that could help or things you would like to see discussed, please feel free to use the Suggestions discussion or even drop me a PM

  • August 25, 2015
    Another interesting point that I thought about while I was reading this is that I think Ayleid groups fled into Valenwood, right? And perhaps assimilated? That could also support the his mother was a Bosmer idea. Perhaps his mother wasn't pure Bosmer, but a mix of Bosmer/Ayleid? Thanks. There is no rush.
  • Member
    August 25, 2015

    I finally found it! It's in the Making of Oblivion documentary starting at the 20:33 mark (well it's a bit later than that but you may as well watch the whole Terrance Stamp sequence )

    So what do you make of it? That the Ayleids have mixed with Bosmeri is a definite, but the impact they may have had is in question.

    Is it possible that the Ayleids have been mixed up in the Camoran dynasty since the fall of their Empire? The Heartland High Elves had a tribal society which in some ways parallels the Bosmer's, could they have been seen by the more rustic Wood Elves as a higher form of mer, the few Ayleids in Valenwood elevated to positions of leadership within Bosmeri society? Could Ayleid blood be the reason why the Dominion was so interested in Anaxemes?

    Citing a stewardship clause in a treaty from a thousand years before, the High Elves quickly established a provisional government, the Thalmor, on behalf of their own claimant, Camoran Anaxemes, whose bloodline had struck the pact with the Aldmeri Council in the first place. PGE 1Ed

    After all the Ayleids preserved some pretty impressive magic, something the High Elves might have been keen to get their hands on.

    However, there is a book setting out to discredit any such impression on Bosmeri society: Ayleid Survivals in Valenwood.

    The fact that the Camoran Dynasty was responsible for atrocities later on could be the reason why Bosmer might downplay any connection to the Camorans:

    The Valenwood the Usurper left behind was a broken land. No longer trusting the Empire or Summerset for support, or its local leaders for guidance, the Bosmer have become more and more isolationist in temperament. The people began leaving the cities, preferring life in the forests, returning to their earliest traditions. It is not surprising that when the province showed signs of weakness, its rapacious neighbors chose to attack PGE 3Ed

  • August 25, 2015

    I want to digest this like a good steak, but I am exhausted and have had only had 5 hours of sleep on top of 4 hours the night before. 

    But I am intrigued and will muse on this properly later. 

    I make it so that a group of Ayleids also travel to Summerset, again, stupid Dusk has to go and be a nice city and be all welcoming, like they were to a bunch of Snow Elves earlier. :) It's nice to know that my Elven movements in the narrative, which are educated guesses and embellishments on my part, can be backed up by a pattern of fleeing in the lore. It just takes a few boatloads of them, not thousands. 

    Terrence Stamp, is Terrence Stamp. Wow.

  • Member
    August 25, 2015

    I'd say that the portrayal of the Bosmer in ESO seems to work with that Ayleid Survivals book, as I didn't notice any Ayleid influences in Valenwood tribe cultures. Unless we count the Orrery at Elden Root which was more a ruin than an influence IMO. But I don't find it too unlikely that Mankar could've been a descendant of Ayleids, with the genes revealing themselves only in later generations 

  • Tim
    Member
    August 25, 2015

    Thanks again Phil, I appreciate it. I think the most confusing things are the religions. I didn't really realize that each race kinda had their own pantheon (or know what pantheon meant until I started reading about it lol). Then, suddenly, I read a few things that made me realize that many of the gods in each pantheon are the same gods. . .which was the end :P. I'll probably try and get back into it now though.

  • Member
    August 25, 2015

    You're going to hate me for this but I don't think it's just a coincidence that direct Ayleid influence on Bosmer life starts at the same time as Anumaril weaves their stories together through some Tower magic:

    Anumaril had hoped to convert Green-Sap into White-Gold, and thereby make the Heartlanders' realm anew. However, Anumaril did not know, and was not able to know, why his plan went awry. You see, Ayleid magic is about Will, and Shall, and Must—but under Green-Sap, all is Perchance.

    The Ayleid fangler’s plan could not succeed—and yet neither could it fail. For this is a story that has not yet found its ending. Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree.

    The book Ayleid Survivals does it's best to downplay the role Ayleids played on Bosmeri culture, but another read of it shows that it is all speculation piled upon conjecture.

    My counter argument would be that the book Ayleid Cities of Valenwood clearly shows the importance of Ayleid culture to the Wood Elves to the extent that the Ayleid were allowed to build their libraries and cities in and around Elden Root.

    Of note in particular is the university and libraries at nearby Elden Root. The Ayleids there built their city in and around what is called the Elden Tree or the First Tree, believed by many to be the tree that seeded all of Valenwood.

    Not to mention the other Ayleid Cities referenced in the book which are again downplayed by Ayleid Survivals:

    And what did our forest-dwelling cousins learn from the Ayleids? Precious little, apparently, other than some advanced techniques of stonework and masonry. Heartland Elven culture seems to have made little lasting impression on the culture of the Wood Elves.

    Such dismissive hand-waving of the lasting impact of these cities is the same as saying that Roman Colchester had little to no impact on the lives of the indigenous Britains. It's hard to imagine a city, a place of trade, industry, learning and law and order not having any effect on the surrounding area.

    By the time the White-Gold Knights took the pieces of Anumaril's staff in different directions and marked the fall of the Tower for the Ayleids, the relationship between the Bosmer and Heartland High Elves was strong.

    Green-Sap’s Elves welcomed the Ayleids so long as the Heartlanders agreed not to dissonate the greensong.

    So how after all that Tower-fuckery and cultural impacts from Ayleid cities in the heart of Valenwood could the Ayleid impact on Bosmeri culture be so easily dismissed?

  • Member
    August 25, 2015
    Simply, they are Bosmer ;) Their culture is highly self-sustaining and has very little place for outside influence. The connection with nature, sacrifices it requires and benefits it brings shape Bosmeri culture from A to Z. Take for example the Ayleid cities you mentioned. Those cities have no Bosmer living in them, Bosmeri houses occupy the higher levels of trees. Building such houses is only possible through a unique type of magic (called treeminding if I'm not mistaken) only made possible due to the unique connection of Bosmer people to Valenwood. Even in the time of ESO, outsiders can be found living in Bosmer cities, occupying the ground level of the forest. But outside culture has little to no effect on the Bosmer. They just laugh about it and stay true to their ways. The rules of the Green Pact are too rigid to allow outsider influence.
  • Member
    August 25, 2015

    Interesting. So you're saying the Bosmer didn't really care?

    Is there an explanation why the ruling elite, the Camorans, were the exact opposite of this nonchalant attitude? They were almost Ayleid in their righteousness.