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Redguard Braintstorming Thread

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  Member
   

  August 14, 2015

  Thanks, Nobody. The focus on stars and astronomy in Yokudan culture is definitely one of my favorite bits about their lore. And yeah, magic is definitely a part of some of their techniques. "...the faint but strong enough flicker of magicka to call forth the Shehai." (From the Memory Stone of Makela Leki)

  I don't actually have a strong opinion about them being from the previous kalpa. I think it has the potential for some awesome stuff if utilized right. My biggest worry is that it becomes irrelevant. If it doesn't actually affect them at some point, then it was pointless. I mean yeah, a lot of their culture and advancements were lost, but that never required moving into a new kalpa. Just the destruction of Yokuda. Which is one reason why I like the Left-Hander/Orgnum idea, because it utilizes the passage between kalpas in an interesting way (in my biased opinion). Although I totally understand if that steps into the 'too bizarre' area for some people.

  Yeah, the Forebear do have an odd pantheon. At the same time I'm against 'Imperializing' other racial pantheons, whether it's done by in-universe characters or Bethesda themselves. So the Forebear's pantheon will NEVER interest me as much the Crown's or ancient Yokudan's, at least from a metaphysical standpoint. It does interest me from a political standpoint.

  Thanks, Nobody. The focus on stars and astronomy in Yokudan culture is definitely one of my favorite bits about their lore. And yeah, magic is definitely a part of some of their techniques. "...the faint but strong enough flicker of magicka to call forth the Shehai." (From the Memory Stone of Makela Leki)

  I don't actually have a strong opinion about them being from the previous kalpa. I think it has the potential for some awesome stuff if utilized right. My biggest worry is that it becomes irrelevant. If it doesn't actually affect them at some point, then it was pointless. I mean yeah, a lot of their culture and advancements were lost, but that never required moving into a new kalpa. Just the destruction of Yokuda. Which is one reason why I like the Left-Hander/Orgnum idea, because it utilizes the passage between kalpas in an interesting way (in my biased opinion). Although I totally understand if that steps into the 'too bizarre' area for some people.

  Yeah, the Forebear do have an odd pantheon. At the same time I'm against 'Imperializing' other racial pantheons, whether it's done by in-universe characters or Bethesda themselves. So the Forebear's pantheon will NEVER interest me as much the Crown's or ancient Yokudan's, at least from a metaphysical standpoint. It does interest me from a political standpoint.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  August 15, 2015

  "My biggest worry is that it becomes irrelevant. If it doesn't actually affect them at some point, then it was pointless."

  That is precisely why I am not fond of it. The idea of Atmora freezing in time adds what in comparison to the Nords just leaving for ecological reasons? I tend to be weary of metaphysical speculations.

  "Yeah, the Forebear do have an odd pantheon. At the same time I'm against 'Imperializing' other racial pantheons, whether it's done by in-universe characters or Bethesda themselves."

  I appreciate it for this reason:

  "It does interest me from a political standpoint."

  Hopefully my head-canon about Redguards and magic will make my preference for it clear.

  "My biggest worry is that it becomes irrelevant. If it doesn't actually affect them at some point, then it was pointless."

  That is precisely why I am not fond of it. The idea of Atmora freezing in time adds what in comparison to the Nords just leaving for ecological reasons? I tend to be weary of metaphysical speculations.

  "Yeah, the Forebear do have an odd pantheon. At the same time I'm against 'Imperializing' other racial pantheons, whether it's done by in-universe characters or Bethesda themselves."

  I appreciate it for this reason:

  "It does interest me from a political standpoint."

  Hopefully my head-canon about Redguards and magic will make my preference for it clear.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  Yeah, 'Imperializing' is fine up to a point. It's kind of like the previous kalpa thing with the Redguards; it depends on how it's utilized. If some in-universe character who knows nothing about the Redguard gods claims Ruptga is just the Yokudan Akatosh, that's fine because they're meant to be an unreliable narrator. But if one of the Bethesda writers starts touting that (which I can't imagine they would), then I would totally give them shit for it.

  I do enjoy the political side of Tamriel, especially with stuff like the Thalmor. But when it comes to the Redguards, I absolutely love their metaphysics. Which is why I don't really like the Forebears. Too many Imperial gods for my tastes, not enough badass sword/star gods (they even dropped Ruptga which is particularly bizarre). Guess I'm a traditionalist.

  Yeah, 'Imperializing' is fine up to a point. It's kind of like the previous kalpa thing with the Redguards; it depends on how it's utilized. If some in-universe character who knows nothing about the Redguard gods claims Ruptga is just the Yokudan Akatosh, that's fine because they're meant to be an unreliable narrator. But if one of the Bethesda writers starts touting that (which I can't imagine they would), then I would totally give them shit for it.

  I do enjoy the political side of Tamriel, especially with stuff like the Thalmor. But when it comes to the Redguards, I absolutely love their metaphysics. Which is why I don't really like the Forebears. Too many Imperial gods for my tastes, not enough badass sword/star gods (they even dropped Ruptga which is particularly bizarre). Guess I'm a traditionalist.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  You Yokus probably know a fair bit more than I, but my understanding from other sources indicate that the previous Kalpa theories do hold some water. I mean, according to (admittedly) mostly oog sources like Shor son of Shor, the Kalpic Cycle always starts with Convention and the war between Men and Elves, always ends with the world being eaten by Sep (Alduin).

  Now, what I'm getting at is that in most sources Yokuda is in mythic-memory. Take this line from The Hunger of Sep:

  In far-off Yokuda, in times of yore, when all walked in step with the gods.

  This would put Yokuda firmly at the "time" before Convention if you compare it to the Monomyth, ie in a previous Kalpa much like Aldmeris. The same book goes on to say:

  But some there were among the people who decided that a little more than what they needed was not as much as they did want. And in their avarice they fell away from proper reverence, and were taken, yea, body and soul, with the Hunger of Sep. And this was an ill thing, for the Hunger of Sep can never be sated.

  Then evil came to Yokuda, and red war, and forbidden rites were practiced, and fell things were summoned that should never have been called forth. It was a Time of Ending. Satakal arose from the starry deeps, and Yokuda was pulled down beneath the waves.

  Comparatively speaking, this is the end of the old Kalpa and the (re-)start of Convention. The red war is the never ending war of elves and men, the Ehlnofey War. (Almost) Every source in lore make Yokuda a mythic place rather than a physical. Except the timeline. Why did they arrive so late?

  You Yokus probably know a fair bit more than I, but my understanding from other sources indicate that the previous Kalpa theories do hold some water. I mean, according to (admittedly) mostly oog sources like Shor son of Shor, the Kalpic Cycle always starts with Convention and the war between Men and Elves, always ends with the world being eaten by Sep (Alduin).

  Now, what I'm getting at is that in most sources Yokuda is in mythic-memory. Take this line from The Hunger of Sep:

  In far-off Yokuda, in times of yore, when all walked in step with the gods.

  This would put Yokuda firmly at the "time" before Convention if you compare it to the Monomyth, ie in a previous Kalpa much like Aldmeris. The same book goes on to say:

  But some there were among the people who decided that a little more than what they needed was not as much as they did want. And in their avarice they fell away from proper reverence, and were taken, yea, body and soul, with the Hunger of Sep. And this was an ill thing, for the Hunger of Sep can never be sated.

  Then evil came to Yokuda, and red war, and forbidden rites were practiced, and fell things were summoned that should never have been called forth. It was a Time of Ending. Satakal arose from the starry deeps, and Yokuda was pulled down beneath the waves.

  Comparatively speaking, this is the end of the old Kalpa and the (re-)start of Convention. The red war is the never ending war of elves and men, the Ehlnofey War. (Almost) Every source in lore make Yokuda a mythic place rather than a physical. Except the timeline. Why did they arrive so late?

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  You understand that kalpic cycle/Convention stuff better than me, Phil.

  Though I think Forebearialis is approaching the Redguard/Previous Kalpa theory from the 'Boring therefore Wrong' perspective. But it definitely holds water, in terms of sources. I just think it needs to be utilized a bit better.

  One thing that is a bit weird. The Kalpic Cycles, in Yokudan mythos, were happening before the creation of Mundus (that's what Convention is, right?). Satakal was eating worlds before Sep ever came up with the idea of Mundus.

  You understand that kalpic cycle/Convention stuff better than me, Phil.

  Though I think Forebearialis is approaching the Redguard/Previous Kalpa theory from the 'Boring therefore Wrong' perspective. But it definitely holds water, in terms of sources. I just think it needs to be utilized a bit better.

  One thing that is a bit weird. The Kalpic Cycles, in Yokudan mythos, were happening before the creation of Mundus (that's what Convention is, right?). Satakal was eating worlds before Sep ever came up with the idea of Mundus.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  Convention marks the end of the Dawn Era, it's that moment when Lorkhan's heart is ripped out and Sep get's a whacking:

  So I think I was wrong in my reply above, not specific enough. So creation happens before Convention. It's cyclical, so that Sep will always be eating worlds before and after each Kalpa, I think.

  Convention marks the end of the Dawn Era, it's that moment when Lorkhan's heart is ripped out and Sep get's a whacking:

  So I think I was wrong in my reply above, not specific enough. So creation happens before Convention. It's cyclical, so that Sep will always be eating worlds before and after each Kalpa, I think.

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  Satakal is the kalpa eater. Sep goes after the stars (remember stars were set by Ruptga to guide weaker spirits to the Far Shores and as a potential way to escape Mundus). But like I said, Satakal's cycle of eating everything predates the creation of Mundus, which I don't think is the case in any other creation myths. Is Satakal eating stuff actually somehow separate from the kalpic cycle?

  Maybe Tom has some ideas.

  Satakal is the kalpa eater. Sep goes after the stars (remember stars were set by Ruptga to guide weaker spirits to the Far Shores and as a potential way to escape Mundus). But like I said, Satakal's cycle of eating everything predates the creation of Mundus, which I don't think is the case in any other creation myths. Is Satakal eating stuff actually somehow separate from the kalpic cycle?

  Maybe Tom has some ideas.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  Too many damn hungry snakes, I get them confused Still, I get marks for squeezing in a Simpsons reference, no?

  The Redguard myth has a definite beginning which is needed, but their story of putting stars in the sky is to my eyes the story of Magnus leaving, the spin being that Magnus knew what he was doing rather than bailing out. Actually, that view is backed by an oog source.

  Now, I think that myth event happens, but I'm unsure whether it is just Nirn or all of Mundus which is eaten each cycle. If it's just Nirn, then all's well. But if it the entirety of Mundus then I think I'll run into difficulty there.

  Too many damn hungry snakes, I get them confused Still, I get marks for squeezing in a Simpsons reference, no?

  The Redguard myth has a definite beginning which is needed, but their story of putting stars in the sky is to my eyes the story of Magnus leaving, the spin being that Magnus knew what he was doing rather than bailing out. Actually, that view is backed by an oog source.

  Now, I think that myth event happens, but I'm unsure whether it is just Nirn or all of Mundus which is eaten each cycle. If it's just Nirn, then all's well. But if it the entirety of Mundus then I think I'll run into difficulty there.

• Deleted Member

  
   

  August 15, 2015

  "Yeah, 'Imperializing' is fine up to a point."

  As long as the Crowns stay the...

  "Which is why I don't really like the Forebears."

  What?

  "Yeah, 'Imperializing' is fine up to a point."

  As long as the Crowns stay the...

  "Which is why I don't really like the Forebears."

  What?

• Matt Feeney the New Guy

  

  Member
   

  August 15, 2015

  Lol. Like I said, I'm way more interested in the Yokudan gods than the Imperial gods. The Forebears just don't worship enough Yokudan gods.

  Lol. Like I said, I'm way more interested in the Yokudan gods than the Imperial gods. The Forebears just don't worship enough Yokudan gods.