Hmm, you know I've never thought about that Sotek, the stuff about TES 6 I mean. I think that might have to take place in another discussion sometime, probably multiple discussions but I would personally think that we'd create a TES 6 CB Group as a seperate entity to the SCB. It, well honestly if we look at how hyped people got about Skyrim compared to Oblivion and Morrowind, well I think that TES 6 is just going to be a beast to handle here (hope it is too.)

Still, food for thought Sotek. Very interesting idea to talk about.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/DecumusScotti]Decumus Scotti[/url] said:[/b] An Elder Scrolls 6 discussion will probably be farther down the road I'd think, because the way things are looking it'll be several years before it is released. In response To Soly'a comment, I of course don't mean to completely throw out Vanilla mods. And I didn't mean focus exclusively on Ordinator, as there are many other quality overhauls such as Requiem, Perkus Maximus etc. I just think we should take advantage of the fact that a larger portion of the TV has access to mods.[/blockquote]

The danger there is really in splitting our userbase. If I play on vanilla, I'll pay less attention to Requiem, Ordinator, and Perkus Maximus. If I use Ordinator, I won't spend as much time looking at Requiem and Perkus builds. If I use Perkus Maximus, I won't be well-versed or well-equipped to critique Ordinator and Requiem builds. I'm concerned that too much focus on overhaul mods will sort of artificially divide our already less-than-huge userbase.

I strongly suggest anyone thinking of a split stops it straightaway. We split TSC into two before. Skyrim and Fallout. It doesn't matter that TSC isn't as big or has the pull of CB, the results will be the same.

Group discussions conserning one group will not include the other. members in this other group will feel left out and moral will suffer. Moral drops then so will content. One group wil flourish. Anyone new to TV who wants to add content to the other group will find there is a huge mnental barrier to breach before they go ahead. 

Hosts will find their attention is pulled to the main group more because of the doubling up effect. Posting two events, one in each group. Taking care of two sections instead of one. Trying to give support in two areas instead of one. 

It is far easier helping six members who are all in the same group than it is helping six members in two groups. I've been here, I've done it... don't go there! This will be a huge mistake, it will cause a rift and the rift will be extreamly hard to fix. I honestly believe we would have had more Fallout content if we never split the groups.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Trust me, over this we do have hindsight... This is not the way to go.

Sotek Bad Wolf of the Blog 

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/DecumusScotti]Decumus Scotti[/url] said:[/b] I don't think anyone was suggesting a split. I was simply saying that perhaps if builders focused more on modded builds than we could rejuvenate the character builds section of the Tamriel Vault.The less than huge user base is a problem that needs to be solved. The TV suggests that there are 16000 members. But how many actually visit the website more than once a month? I think that's something that needs to be worked on and is perhaps related to the issue of the rank system.[/blockquote]

I would suggest that it's more due to the fact that Skyrim is six years old. As is the less-than-huge user base. Our game is six years old. Our site is six years old. We've been building up membership for six years. Some of those 16'000 members are six-year-old accounts. Let that sink in for a few minutes.

I do think we agree on some of the macro points. The rank system as it stands now is problematic and no longer working as intended. I agree. The CB group should offer somewhat more support for modded builds. I agree.

Here is where I disagree. "If builders focused more on modded builds, then we could rejuvenate the CB section of the Tamriel Vault."

Firstly, I will let no one and nobody dictate whether I build vanilla or modded. Obviously this isn't really the point you're making, so I'm sort of strawmanning here. But I think it's worth saying anyway. Forcing people to build modded or vanilla? Never a good idea. More modded support on the group?

Secondly, I don't think focusing more on modded builds will rejuvenate the CB section. Let me be clear on my point of view here. The reason the CB section is no longer as active as it was... is because our game is six years old.

But of course, all of this is an exkurs. What is up for discussion is the ranking system. DB has summarised the main arguments for our current system already, I think. So let's review.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Dragonborn1721]Dragonborn1921[/url] said:[/b]

Honestly, I'm not going to fight someone about the whole ranking system. I personally like it, but my stance on the whole thing is closer to the fact that I don't really see a good alternative. If someone suggested something that was better in my opinion, that'd be fine by me but I haven't seen it. The like system, despite the potential flaws in the system, or the issues that people have with it there were a few things it did that are hard to replace.

First, it was something that was there to essentially categorize builds into quality levels. 

Second, it was a system that gave people clearly defined goals, and partially inspired people to create better content (something which is easier with something clear like likes as opposed to comments). I prefer getting 10 comments when compared to 10 likes, but the latter is a clear sign of accomplishment where the former is a way for me to talk to people.

Third, it was a moderately fair system. Sure it was slightly more biased towards older builders but, well that's part of the system as well really, but basically most other systems that have been brought up can either be manipulated, or have the potential to seem like they can be manipulated. 

Four, liking content bumps content. Might be a minor thing, but I like something, it shows up on the front page and lets other people know it exists. Most other status symbols don't have the sheer potential for bumpability that the like system does because it either floods a build with comments, or doesn't show up on the front page.

You essentially have to do all these things to equal the Rank/Liking system in my eyes. Which is bloody hard to do in a manner that doesn't fly over most people's heads and that is just as easy to grip for everyone. The like system makes logical sense, it's how most places tend to do it (with different names naturally) and it's just easy to do. Those are huge benefits to most system's in my opinion. 

[/blockquote]

So what's the problem with the system? So many good points! Why is it broken?

Well. The issue here is that it arguably no longer does any of these things. No hate for you, friend DB. Just calling it as I see it.

Think of it this way: over time, the site's average build quality increases due to builders getting skilled in things like presentation, interesting build ideas, roleplay-drive, discovery of new mechanics, et cetera. Additionally, over a longer period of time, membership decreases due to the game's age and decreasing interest in Skyrim. We thus expect newer builds to be of greater quality, but to have a lower absolute number of likes due to lower membership.

Over a short period of time, we expect more-liked builds to be better than less-liked ones. However, over the long term, due to decreasing membership and activity, we also expect the like counter to decrease. We expect this even though build quality is expected to rise.

Because of that the system, over this extended time frame (six years as of now), is no longer fair (DB's point 3). Effectively the once "slight" bias towards older builders has become insurmountable.

Once that happens the entire system breaks down. Categorizing builds into quality levels no longer applies once you expect newer, quality builds to have less likes than older, mediocre builds (point 1). When you can't even get out of Bloodworks, you stop caring about the like counter and just git gud for yourself (point 2) (though I can definitely tell you that I'm going to throw a damn party if my Mage Knight ever gets that 20th like). Also SE does not bump a build on a like (point 4) - I liked Aidence's Chevalier build a few hours ago but it didn't bump.

The system is broken. How can we fix it? It's 2:30 am, and summer Skyrim is dead to me, I'll start playing Skyrim seriously again in September. Read as: I have no idea, and there's no way I'll be able to think of something at 2am.

One thing I do need to ask is this: how serious are we about the Likes system? Right now, it's accorded significant prominence on the CB group, which is at odds with at least the regular community's perspective on it (the general opinion from this thread seems to be that likes don't matter that much, I think?). I think it's worth considering at least if the entire system should be scrapped (do not take this as me suggesting that it should be scrapped. Merely at least consider the problems we're having with the system, and ask if not having such a system at all would be a better option). Or if it needs to be given less prominence in the CB group heading.

Likes are good things. They are clear ways for people to tell each other that they give a fuck. Comments are better, even if those comments are platitudes. Ranks are like the next logical step, a way to identify the quality of builds. Back in my admin days I would study the traffic and page views, see which areas of the site were important to people. The Archives, HoF, and Build Recommendations were always among the highest generators of views. People might visit the Archives to look up Nord builds, but their next logical question is "what is the best Nord build?" These are important questions as it is a way of measuring quality.

That sounds absurd, and frankly it is. Creativity is art, and as such it is largely subjective. That said, we also like to build consensus and establish or otherwise catgegorise. Nothing is worse than apathy, and those who have builds in those HoF's have earned their place and have the right to be proud of that. However, that achievement shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to share creativity and have that creativity inspire others - but rarely will those others admit they were inspired. I am in my head so this will be tangled.

As I untangle, I would say that by and large the site is at that latter point. Rare is the person who strives for a legendary build these days. To some it might matter hugley, but I think for most of us we post because it is fun and makes us happy. That is what I have always championed, and am delighted with such honest work done under Vivec's Fire.

Because I value that approach, I would like to see fluidity and community. Liking and commenting on a build doesnt take long, and soon that build becomes a memory only dug up rarely and by chance, living in a rank like an old book on a dusty shelf.

Nowadays Hosts have Polls, and polls are good fun for community interaction. If you were to create a poll with four builds and we vote which one to advance in rank, I would not be opposed to seeing such a community-driven undertaking. Even if that is not feasible and not an equitable system, using that tool to otherwise highlight builds for feature attention or the like would be nice for me to see.

Thanks everyone for responding and offering your views on this subject. I think some of you may have gotten a little off track with the idea of increasing group activity; that is not my intent. Really the only reason I posted this topic is because it’s something that regularly comes up concerning the likes based ranking and how it is impossible to expect anyone to get 100 likes on any build in 2015,16,17, and those individuals are right. I don’t think activity is the problem, the group is still active, sure it’s slow but this is a six year old game the fact that new builds are being posted almost every week and that people seek out build recommendations almost every day should tell you that it’s not dead, not yet anyway.

Ya'll have presented some good ideas and I can tell they were well thought out, they are also ideas that you've propably seen or mentioned before yourself.  My intent is to come up with a difinitive solution to this so if/when the topic of ranks comes up in the future we will have this community driven discussion to point the individual too and say "we have discussed this and here is what we came up with"

I'm loath to make any change to the ranking system as it is.  As Paws has said those builders earned their ranks and any change to how that system functions I think cheapens that accomplishment.  So I really don't want to change them at all.

A new system of ranks may be a good idea.  I would suggest new names for the ranks and we would need to figure out the threshold for each rank.  I would see them as Skyrim SE ranks or something like that tying them into the re-realease of the game.  I think this makes sense and it may be a viable option moving forward.

We could also just make the ranks optional without changing anything else.  Simply say you don’t need a rank but if you want one here they are and here is how they work.

As I mentioned there will be a poll for this right now I just want everyones ideas to be put out there and for the community to have time to mull this over.  So expect one in the next few days (like Monday or Tuesday next week) and we'll do this all Democratic like.

Paws came scary close to an idea i've had knocking around my noggin for the last week or so but I wanted to get this bit of group business out of the way first.

XXXX

Time to join in again for me I guess. I love this debate, there's so many excellent points and a lot of different things are behind said that I get behind and well plenty that I disagree with. 

@Soly. Your absolutely correct, that was something I should have touched on more but I was outlining the intended purpose behind the like system and how it's previously worked. At the moment, I would put a high ranking build at closer to 15-20 with a few insane builds managing to get 30 (I believe Noodles has a Fallout build with around 30 likes on this site, and maybe Lissette with Skyrim...not sure). The system doesn't work, and I was more trying to outline what I think a new system would have to do. I'd love the idea of polls if you could vote for more than one option but that hasn't been an option that I know about (maybe there's some funky Admin stuff that can be done there). 

@Sotek. I think I'm the only one that mentioned a split with TES 6 and Skyrim and I truly do think that will be the best option. The odds are that the game will be so different from Skyrim that it would be the equivelent of combining Fallout CB and Skyrim CB. It just wouldn't make much sense to me. Plus your looking at the fact that we'd essentially have to either create two of everything within the CB group or try and deal with a Help Desk that deals with both Skyrim and 6 content. It's hardly a major issue since this site will be a decade old before 6 comes out, but really I imagine them as two completely seperate groups. What is considered logical for this group would have no impact on 6.

But if I'm off the track completely and your talking about the mod stuff. Yeah fuck splitting modded and vanilla up.

@Vargr

Radical man, I love polls, we could always use more polls in my opinion. I like the idea of ranks being optional. I mean I'll aim for that SE EPIC or whatever it ends up being (I vote we name a rank after me personally, the Deeb rank has a great ring to it.) at the top but I think there will be people who don't care, and thus shouldn't have to.

Now I'm not the most qualified to talk about this, seeing as how I only made one build despite working on three (though I would like to make another, which is why I'm throwing in my two cents) but I can't personally see the ranking system continuing to work the same way as in the past. In the early days the likes system worked very well because there were many active members and infinite new concepts. However, as presentation had been standardized, most if not all mechanics been utilized, and as interest in the game begins to want, the focus for good builds became roleplay. Not long ago, roleplay heavy builds with detailed, cool backstories took the place that innovative game play held way back in the day. Then, as backstories were used, then reused, the used again, builds needed yet another factor to pull the likes and unfortunately, I can't think of anything that could be that like factor. Of course, it doesn't help that some of the most renowned builders are now gone.

Because there is nothing left in the base game that can really turn heads(sure, mods are great, but not everybody uses them or use the same ones. Besides, different builds have different needs and most people don't want to download new mods just to play one build), I would say it's a good idea to turn a new leaf and either revamp the ranks, or make them optional/reserved for good builds. Perhaps something where you can opt not to have your work ranked and focus on feedback in the comments, or where most builds are unranked, but ones that are considered some of the best by the community earn a title or rank or something like that to keep that separation between the very best and the Sea of builds out there, just so that people looking for builds can still clearly see where the best builds are.

I know everything I've said has been said already, but I just figured that repition is better than silence.