KaiserSoSay said:
I just realized that Elder Scrolls doesn't really make the mention of sex that obvious in their lore. They just had to shroud it in the exotic tale of a godly hermaphrodite.
BTW, I wonder how LGBT is handled in Elder Scrolls. I know there was one mention of LGBT in a letter inside a small shack which housed a Dwemer thingamajig.
I found it odd that ESO is so open about relatonships at first. I recall meeting an elderly Bosmer couple in Greenshade, Hartmin and Mirlir, the latter being on death's door. His husband, Hartmin, wants you to plant a few seeds in order to restore a grove that was once special to them. Things get trippy when memory-flowers bloom and you see visions of these dudes from their youth.
In ESO Morrowind we meet Overseer Shiralas in charge of canton construction and need to borrow a blessing stone from her. Later when Vivec's power over Baar Dau really starts to wane, we meet her wife who asks you to find Shiralas.
There are a few more I can think of, mostly in the AD questline as that's where I spent the most time, but gay couples seem fairly common in the Second Era.
The Long-Chapper said:
The Lorc of Flowers said:
I know what you're talking about, Kaiser. It's on Solstheim. Hrodulf and Bjornolfr. It's actually quite funny because from the letter and the journal you wouldn't guess they are gay, it's only when you find both their corpses it hits you. So it's like...not said directly.
And this is what I love about TES sexual references. TES is actually a highly sexual world, highly charged with the combo of violence and sex. Go read Shor son of Shor for that (I think Dibella is basically clubbed and dragged to bed for shooting her mouth, echos of Aphrodite and Ares anyone?) and the story about the two lovers that became lovers after they tried to kill each other. The Khajiit origin story involves a whole lot of making babies! On the flip side, because of the cultural models they are basing the societies on, you are getting the references hidden in allegory and metaphor, very similar to how these references were done in the Middle Ages and Rennaisance. John Dunn wrote some pretty erotic stuff, if you understand the metaphor in his famous The Flea.
I mean seriously, Reman fucks mud. There be some kinky shit in TES.
Yes, back to our favorite hermaphradite god. It would stand to reason that someone born with such special parts would be put to good use and I have no doubts that Vivec was a prostitute. In several tales of major religions there are segments where the "god" figure experiences sin and yeah, that includes sex. I believe Siddhartha does in his trist with the courtesan and let's not even touch on Beowulf, which is quite a sexually charged tale, if you think about it, as are the Knights of the Round table. You really cannot transcend if you don't know what sin or life experiences really are.
Absolutetly agree. Sex and violence go together in the mythology. I mean, sexual content is more obvious and straightforward in things like The Real Barenziah, or The Poison Song, but it's at it's most fun when it's used allegorically or metaphorically to describe mythical events. Hrol making love "unto a hillock" from which earthly womb Reman is delivered and later becomes Sancre Tor is a very visual metaphor of Reman's conection to the land, and physically linking him to the Amulet of Kings, a relationship reminiscent of the Fisher King in Arthurian Legend.
With the Vivec, we see his spear, Muatra, as a many-layered thing. It's most commonly seen as a metaphor for his cock but more accurately shares the same symbolic meaning as the lingam does with Shiva in Hindu mythology. Good time to quote Rotten Deadite of New Whirling School:
The Lingam, being a cosmic pillar that unites the heavens and the earth represents Shiva's ability and motivation to change his environment, and in this respect it is again identical to MUATRA. And again, like MUATRA represents Vivec, the Lingam represents Shiva himself. If it is a weapon, MUATRA is also broadly a powerful spiritual representation of Vivec. It's Freud's dreamstate symbolism, sure, but it could also physically resemble an actual spear without invalidating any of these concepts. The form of MUATRA changes as much as its usage, but it always remains the "signature", or mark(er), of Vivec.
It's a destructive thing, but also is used to create or change reality, bringing fertility gods and goddesses into Tribunal Scripture. I've often wondered if the netch hook from What My Beloved is the same physical Muatra before it was anything more than a netch hook: "I’d make a legend of this netch longhook. Make no frown that this will be my weapon in your guard, however low its station." Somehow the idea that he kept this tool for millennia and turned it into something of huge mythical importance just makes me laugh. But what tickles me in What My Beloved Taught Me is, "Or does his lordship want it Saliache, weeping and weak-kneed with their lisp, their lilt, as I can do that, too."
More violently, we see the term "milk-finger(s)" pop up a couple times in the 36 Lessons. In the first Sermon we see the dreugh gift the netchiman's wife with a metaphor for penises so that she becomes a hermaphrodite too.
Most notably in terms of violence, though, is:
BARFOK, Maid of Planes, who appeared as a winged human with lick-encrusted spear, had the powers of Event Denouement. Battles fought against her would always end in victory for Barfok, because she could shape outcomes by singing. Four Chimeri villages and two more Dwemeri strongholds were destroyed by her decision enforcement. Vivec had to stuff her mouth with his milk finger to keep her from singing Veloth into ruin.
If we stop and think about it, that's one hell of a way to win a fight.
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]KaiserSoSay[/url] said:[/b]
I just realized that Elder Scrolls doesn't really make the mention of sex that obvious in their lore. They just had to shroud it in the exotic tale of a godly hermaphrodite.
BTW, I wonder how LGBT is handled in Elder Scrolls. I know there was one mention of LGBT in a letter inside a small shack which housed a Dwemer thingamajig.
[/blockquote]
I found it odd that ESO is so open about relatonships at first. I recall meeting an elderly Bosmer couple in Greenshade, Hartmin and Mirlir, the latter being on death's door. His husband, Hartmin, wants you to plant a few seeds in order to restore a grove that was once special to them. Things get trippy when memory-flowers bloom and you see visions of these dudes from their youth.
In ESO Morrowind we meet Overseer Shiralas in charge of canton construction and need to borrow a blessing stone from her. Later when Vivec's power over Baar Dau really starts to wane, we meet her wife who asks you to find Shiralas.
There are a few more I can think of, mostly in the AD questline as that's where I spent the most time, but gay couples seem fairly common in the Second Era.
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/LissetteLongChapper]The Long-Chapper[/url] said:[/b]
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/KarverTheLorc]The Lorc of Flowers[/url] said:[/b]
I know what you're talking about, Kaiser. It's on Solstheim. Hrodulf and Bjornolfr. It's actually quite funny because from the letter and the journal you wouldn't guess they are gay, it's only when you find both their corpses it hits you. So it's like...not said directly.
[/blockquote]
And this is what I love about TES sexual references. TES is actually a highly sexual world, highly charged with the combo of violence and sex. Go read Shor son of Shor for that (I think Dibella is basically clubbed and dragged to bed for shooting her mouth, echos of Aphrodite and Ares anyone?) and the story about the two lovers that became lovers after they tried to kill each other. The Khajiit origin story involves a whole lot of making babies! On the flip side, because of the cultural models they are basing the societies on, you are getting the references hidden in allegory and metaphor, very similar to how these references were done in the Middle Ages and Rennaisance. John Dunn wrote some pretty erotic stuff, if you understand the metaphor in his famous The Flea.
I mean seriously, Reman fucks mud. There be some kinky shit in TES.
Yes, back to our favorite hermaphradite god. It would stand to reason that someone born with such special parts would be put to good use and I have no doubts that Vivec was a prostitute. In several tales of major religions there are segments where the "god" figure experiences sin and yeah, that includes sex. I believe Siddhartha does in his trist with the courtesan and let's not even touch on Beowulf, which is quite a sexually charged tale, if you think about it, as are the Knights of the Round table. You really cannot transcend if you don't know what sin or life experiences really are.
[/blockquote]
Absolutetly agree. Sex and violence go together in the mythology. I mean, sexual content is more obvious and straightforward in things like The Real Barenziah, or The Poison Song, but it's at it's most fun when it's used allegorically or metaphorically to describe mythical events. Hrol making love "unto a hillock" from which earthly womb Reman is delivered and later becomes Sancre Tor is a very visual metaphor of Reman's conection to the land, and physically linking him to the Amulet of Kings, a relationship reminiscent of the Fisher King in Arthurian Legend.
With the Vivec, we see his spear, Muatra, as a many-layered thing. It's most commonly seen as a metaphor for his cock but more accurately shares the same symbolic meaning as the lingam does with Shiva in Hindu mythology. Good time to quote Rotten Deadite of New Whirling School:
The Lingam, being a cosmic pillar that unites the heavens and the earth represents Shiva's ability and motivation to change his environment, and in this respect it is again identical to MUATRA. And again, like MUATRA represents Vivec, the Lingam represents Shiva himself. If it is a weapon, MUATRA is also broadly a powerful spiritual representation of Vivec. It's Freud's dreamstate symbolism, sure, but it could also physically resemble an actual spear without invalidating any of these concepts. The form of MUATRA changes as much as its usage, but it always remains the "signature", or mark(er), of Vivec.
It's a destructive thing, but also is used to create or change reality, bringing fertility gods and goddesses into Tribunal Scripture. I've often wondered if the netch hook from What My Beloved is the same physical Muatra before it was anything more than a netch hook: "I’d make a legend of this netch longhook. Make no frown that this will be my weapon in your guard, however low its station." Somehow the idea that he kept this tool for millennia and turned it into something of huge mythical importance just makes me laugh. But what tickles me in What My Beloved Taught Me is, "Or does his lordship want it Saliache, weeping and weak-kneed with their lisp, their lilt, as I can do that, too."
More violently, we see the term "milk-finger(s)" pop up a couple times in the 36 Lessons. In the first Sermon we see the dreugh gift the netchiman's wife with a metaphor for penises so that she becomes a hermaphrodite too.
Most notably in terms of violence, though, is:
BARFOK, Maid of Planes, who appeared as a winged human with lick-encrusted spear, had the powers of Event Denouement. Battles fought against her would always end in victory for Barfok, because she could shape outcomes by singing. Four Chimeri villages and two more Dwemeri strongholds were destroyed by her decision enforcement. Vivec had to stuff her mouth with his milk finger to keep her from singing Veloth into ruin.
If we stop and think about it, that's one hell of a way to win a fight.
