[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]KaiserSoSay[/url] said:[/b]

Seems like the Aldmers are big fans of these rituals. I dug this up a few minutes ago and I thought it might be related.

Aldarch,

Water is yours to command with this eldritch chalice. It is especially useful when used to honor Anu, who shaped the cosmos in the Dawn Era, and Y'ffre, the Earth Bones.

Scarcely should we credit those who claim we were better off in the time of trading body for root, or root for limb. I, for one, am grateful to wake each day as the same, in both thought and form, as the day preceding.

I digress, as you doubtless recall our history, and this letter—as brief as it may be—is written only to describe the ways of the chalice within the shrine.

Dip the chalice within the shrine's waters. Pour the water on the unclean to wash away the filth. Visions shall you see, as though impurities are washed from your eyes.

Water from the chalice calms chaos. Drink from it when you feel the stirring deep within you that comes only from consuming improperly prepared food.

Be sure to visit both sides of the shrine.

Please accept the chalice with my appreciation. In the name of Mara, may the blood of life continue to pump within your breast.  

- Brief Letter to an Aldrach

These 'visions' could be visions of the past. I mean the Aldmer/Altmer are deep in their ancestor worship. Also something came in mind when I was reading The Waters of Oblivion. If Tamriel's waters contain memories, could Oblivion's waters (Deadland's lava, Apocrypha's murky goop etc.) also contain memories... or even something more sinister? 

I know Phil and Karves had talked about this in Phil's discussion. But you know, I'm just giving my thoughts out.

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[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Teineeva]Teineeva[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]KaiserSoSay[/url] said:[/b]

These 'visions' could be visions of the past. I mean the Aldmer/Altmer are deep in their ancestor worship. Also something came in mind when I was reading The Waters of Oblivion. If Tamriel's waters contain memories, could Oblivion's waters (Deadland's lava, Apocrypha's murky goop etc.) also contain memories... or even something more sinister? 

I know Phil and Karves had talked about this in Phil's discussion. But you know, I'm just giving my thoughts out.

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Do we know of any other visions that may be related to water?

As I mentioned, Argonians may experience them throughout their lifetime, and as you've shown it appears the Aldmer have been using a similar process for their ancestral worshipping. I wonder if some of the other races also have this strange connection to water.

Could the (sacred) water we see in the temples of Dibella and Kynareth in Skyrim could have something to do with this as well? The religion of the nine/eight divines, in general, could have quite a strong link here; after all the shrines we see in Oblivion look a whole lot like baptismal fonts, or is that just me?

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That's a great source, Kais. I'm noodling it through. Water being linked to Anu, who is the super-gradient (or oversoul) of Anuiel, who is the supergradient of Auriel. Anu "calmed the chaos" of Padomay it could be said. Y'ffre is mentioned too and is linked to a primordial Ooze, a formlessness and fluidity. The Ooze in ESO (iirc) is like the place where all breakers of the Greenpact are sent, condemmed back to that fluidity.

From water: life. To water: life.

The Nine Divines and water. I have thoughts, vague ones like mist my mind cannot take hold of.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Teineeva]Teineeva[/url] said:[/b]

Argonians and Plants!

In Phil's article he mentions how the classical soul cycle of an individual on Mundus is that after their life ends they're either brought to Aetherius or one of the planes of Oblivion (depending on religion, race or circumstances of death), if they end up in Aetherius they'll probably have to pass some form of test to enter heaven and if they don't their memories are washed away and they are sent back to Mundus for a new life without the memories of their previous one.

There is, however, a race in TES that doesn't believe in Aetherius as an afterlife; Argonians believe their souls are returned to the Hist after death. The Hist will then pass on this soul to a newborn Argonian and the cycle continues.

In "the Infernal City", we learn this:

“It was generally believed that Argonians had been given their souls by the Hist, and when one died one's soul returned to them, to be incarnated once more. [To Glim,] that seemed reasonable enough, at least under ordinary circumstances. In the deepest parts of his dreams or profound thinking were images, scents, tastes that the part of him that was sentient could not remember experiencing.”

Argonians do not fully remember their past lives but seem to be able to at least retain some of the memories and experiences of what most think of as the previous soul cycle. If we consider the fact that the memories of the dead are stored within the waters of Nirn it comes as no surprise that the Hist are capable of giving them to hatchlings at their naming day; after all, as sentient trees, they tap directly into these waters. Hell, it might even be why some think of the trees as omniscient; if you have access to the past memories of entire peoples you would get pretty damn close.

This quote of "On Argonians" seems to solidify this idea:

These Hist trees contain, the Argonians believe, the collective memories and knowledge of all Argonians.

What interests me here is that it is unknown when this strong link to the Hist and this transfer of memories (and perhaps even soul) occurs. The general theory is that the Argonians gain gender, soul, and name on their naming day as they lick the sap of the Hist. According to this theory Argonians are born as mere animals that only attain sentience after they ingest the sap.

While I have no way of disproving the second part of this theory, I would like to propose a new idea. If water contains memories, what tells us the transfer of memories isn't done when the Argonians are still in their egg? As some who have played ESO have learned; Argonians are amphibian, by which I don't mean their capacity of being able to live both on land and in the water, but the fact they appear to need water for their reproductive cycle. You may have guessed what I'm going at; I believe the memories of dead Argonians are given to them in the Hatching pools. These pools, most often found in the direct vicinity of a Hist are where Argonian eggs are laid. What if they absorb their memories through Osmose as they are gestating?

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The cycle of the soul is complicated and I can't say I even have the right of it. One part of the soul goes to its aligned AE - so Kyne's faithful go to Kyne's Plane(et) or Sovngarde perhaps, but each of the gods are tied to Mundus and so the afterlife as we know it isn't an eternal one. Even those in Sovngarde are only awaiting the final battle of their cultural belief. So it's like the soul goes there, stays for a bit, but all will eventually pour back into Mundus. I think what is key is that the god who gains each soul is strengthened by it, richer in the lunar currency. But Lorkhan always wins, the mortal god who is Mundus incarnate for his "heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." All souls pour back into him from this dreamsleeve river.

For the Principalities, well I like to think of expansion. Space expands and the realms of the Daera are space. Each time they gain a soul, they get richer and have more creatia to build with, expanding their realms with each. It's like science. But 'ent.

Anyway, that's an aside.

I like that proposed theory! AE = identity, and by ingesting the hot and sticky fluid produced by the sexy trees gives the lizardfishthings an ID. Recycled and washed, but that ancestral memory is imparted and forever shared between the Argonian and the Hist. That's a beautiful symbiosis.

Kyne, tears, and rain. And then life comes from rain, crops and things. She over all the other goddesses is most associated with rain. More so than even Dibella or Mara though yes, they have water in their temple, but she is rain. 

Water is both lifegiving and can cause death. Damn what was that story Karver referenced to in his PoTM? The dude who drowned. 

I'm rambling, but Teineeva told me to post. Teineeva made me. Phil makes me post peeeeechurs, Teineeva makes me post lore things. :D

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/LissetteLongChapper]Lissette Long-Chapper[/url] said:[/b]

Kyne, tears, and rain. And then life comes from rain, crops and things. She over all the other goddesses is most associated with rain. More so than even Dibella or Mara though yes, they have water in their temple, but she is rain. 

Water is both lifegiving and can cause death. Damn what was that story Karver referenced to in his PoTM? The dude who drowned. 

I'm rambling, but Teineeva told me to post. Teineeva made me. Phil makes me post peeeeechurs, Teineeva makes me post lore things. :D

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Go post pictures too as the Shared to Main Page is under-used and I plan on spamming with ESO and as such Fallout needs equal rep ;) but I like this contribution :D

Linking it back to Teineeva's OP that "the implications this might have in just about any aspect of how Tamriel functions" what are Kyne's tears doing to the earth? In the context of the dream-as-reality and memories-in-water (Tein's Cyrodiilic name), could we say that memories of life are helping life grow?

Tusk the science, this is TES. Are plants nourished by memory, taught to grow by ancestral memories?

Makes me wonder why there isn't a Water or Ocean god. Which then reminds me to this part of a Selectives Lorecast with Kirkbride.

But, in this Ocean Aedra's absence, we're left with Hermaeus Mora whose sphere is scrying of the tides of Fate, of the past and future as read in the stars and heavens, and in whose dominion are the treasures of knowledge and memory.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/VelothTheProphet]Veloth the Prophet[/url] said:[/b]

In Sotha Sil's Truth in Sequence, he constantly mentions fire as knowledge (which makes perfect sense in Dunmer culture) so if you take water (memory) add fire (knowledge) you get steam (power).

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This makes me wonder how the whole memories thing could feed into the functioning of Dwarven machinery. I can't have been the only one to be surprised that despite all the dwarven machinery laying around Tamriel none of the other races (bar exceptions like Sotha'Sil or dwemer researchers tinkering with scrap) have managed to discover how steam engines work.  The thing about steam engines though is that once someone finds out how to make it work (in this case the dwemer) most other scholars with a minimum of knowledge should be able to replicate it from working examples (which the dwemer have been leaving around; polite as they are). So why has no one ever managed to get a steam powered machine working?

What if there's a magical component to it that everyone is missing? Something to do with the memories stored in the water which is being boiled. I wouldn't be surprised if at the very least it has some influence over the way an Automatons AI works.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Tom5]Tom[/url] said:[/b]

Makes me wonder why there isn't a Water or Ocean god. Which then reminds me to this part of a Selectives Lorecast with Kirkbride.

But, in this Ocean Aedra's absence, we're left with Hermaeus Mora whose sphere is scrying of the tides of Fate, of the past and future as read in the stars and heavens, and in whose dominion are the treasures of knowledge and memory.

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Well, if anything with the revelation that water contains memories Mora's whole neverending sea (of ink) thing and fitting mollusk and fish-like servants make a whole lot more sense. He sort of fits as an ocean deity with this knowledge. Still, a bit weird the races we've got to play as so far seem to lack a proper sea god; that being said in ESO the Moarmer are shown to adore sea serpents. I wonder if that somehow relates to the serpent constellation, I would say it could be something related to navigating the seas but I can't see how a constellation that keeps shifting its position could be used as such.

Anyway, a nice question to ponder.

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/LissetteLongChapper]Lissette Long-Chapper[/url] said:[/b]

Kyne, tears, and rain. And then life comes from rain, crops and things. She over all the other goddesses is most associated with rain. More so than even Dibella or Mara though yes, they have water in their temple, but she is rain. 

Water is both lifegiving and can cause death. Damn what was that story Karver referenced to in his PoTM? The dude who drowned. 

I'm rambling, but Teineeva told me to post. Teineeva made me. Phil makes me post peeeeechurs, Teineeva makes me post lore things. :D

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Go post pictures too as the Shared to Main Page is under-used and I plan on spamming with ESO and as such Fallout needs equal rep ;) but I like this contribution :D

Linking it back to Teineeva's OP that "the implications this might have in just about any aspect of how Tamriel functions" what are Kyne's tears doing to the earth? In the context of the dream-as-reality and memories-in-water (Tein's Cyrodiilic name), could we say that memories of life are helping life grow?

Tusk the science, this is TES. Are plants nourished by memory, taught to grow by ancestral memories?

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I've thought of this before myself and I've advanced the idea that some of the alchemical properties of plants could be related to their water and sunlight intakes, however when I discussed it with Karver he justly pointed out that these effects are believed to come from the Ehlnofey. I am, however, not all that knowledgeable on them, does anyone have a better clue as to how water could affect plant growth?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Paws]Paws[/url] said:[/b]

I like that proposed theory! AE = identity, and by ingesting the hot and sticky fluid produced by the sexy trees gives the lizardfishthings an ID. Recycled and washed, but that ancestral memory is imparted and forever shared between the Argonian and the Hist. That's a beautiful symbiosis.

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Come to think of it; if the Argonians were originally created by the Hist and are given their sentience and identity by the Hist, where did those first memories come from? Would the Hists be capable of recycling the memories of other races into new Argonians?

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Teineeva]Teineeva[/url] said:[/b]

[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Tom5]Tom[/url] said:[/b]

Makes me wonder why there isn't a Water or Ocean god. Which then reminds me to this part of a Selectives Lorecast with Kirkbride.

But, in this Ocean Aedra's absence, we're left with Hermaeus Mora whose sphere is scrying of the tides of Fate, of the past and future as read in the stars and heavens, and in whose dominion are the treasures of knowledge and memory.

[/blockquote]

Well, if anything with the revelation that water contains memories Mora's whole neverending sea (of ink) thing and fitting mollusk and fish-like servants make a whole lot more sense. He sort of fits as an ocean deity with this knowledge. Still, a bit weird none of the races we've got to play as so far seem to lack a proper sea god; that being said in ESO the Moarmer are shown to adore sea serpents. I wonder if that somehow relates to the serpent constellation, I would say it could be something related to navigating the seas but I can't see how a constellation that keeps shifting its position could be used as such.

Anyway, a nice question to ponder.

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Good memory, Tom! I'd totally forgotten about that video :D I'm thnking, as I sip at my brew, that the sea serpent and Maomer connection Tein mentions holds, err, water.

In the video clip, MK, Lady N, Rotten Deadite and the rest are talking about how they had a Tava for the Redguards to pray to but felt it odd that there was no sea god.

With the Yoku's, their stargazing is part of their culture. They think the stars hold the key to the Far Shores - or some such - and navigate by them. Voyaging across the sea is anaolgous to voyaging across the waters of Oblivion, ie through space. I think there is a lot to be said for the Constellations in the context of water from a Redguard pov. And Matt Feeney once had another water-related idea regarding Redguards, iirc.

You guys know about that theory of Yokuda being the past, Tamriel the present and Akavir the future? 

MK said something about traveling from west to east means more than taking time to sail, it means sailing across time.

Since we're associating water with memories, and memories are often associated with time, could this actually add more to the theory that Tamriel is the center of time?

I don't know maybe I'm just rambling here, but I couldn't help but think about that theory the more I relate Tamriel's waters with memories.