KaiserSoSage said: An article about mantling that doesn't get me mind-fucked? Joy! Also, yay more Orc mages! So does this mean Ayleid ruins have a connection with blood? Did Thuk (I'm just calling him Thuk if that's okay with you guys.) somehow found a cheatcode that allowed him to control the sanctum?
An article on mantling, is it? I think that can be done at some point :)
Teineeva said:
You raise an interesting point concerning the Morkul forge Phil. I haven't played through the quest myself but a quick read of the UESp page for that particular quest tells me this:
a bloodforge – a terrible device that fused living captives into weapons and armor
So this forge fuses a captive into whatever is being forged. Am I the only one to be reminded by another more well known forging procedure? To me this sounds a lot like Daedric smithing where one has to infuse ebony with the blood from a deadra heart in order to bind said daedra's soul to the forged item. Both procedures sound very much like a form of enchanting, where, correct me if I'm wrong, the enchanter binds the soul of the creature or person trapped in the soul gem to the enchanted item. If blood and soul could indeed be interchangeable as you say could this mean orc blood magic can function as some "primal" form of enchanting, bypassing the need for soulgems by transferring the soul via blood?
As to how this could relate to Thukhozod, would it be totally outside the bounds of reality that the original Thukhozod "enchanted" whatever controls the undead in the ruin and bound it to his soul? And then through the transfer of blood binding it to his descendants?
That's a great line of thought, Tein. Where enchanting is concerned it really does riff upon a theme. Iirc, when we meet those Morkul Orcs, the Forge-Wife is telling us about how the Orcs use a body part of an ancestor in their forging to lend power to their weapons. Ithink she refers to this, but am not entirely sure:
I finally found an old Orc female who was willing to share some of their death rituals with me. Specifically, she was willing to discuss the practice of "beshkar-nor", the death-forge. Apparently, what happens to the bodies of Orcs of great stature-leaders, heroes, and revered elders-is that they undergo a process known as the death-forge. The old Orc described the process in confusing terms. I'm not sure if the blood is drained from the body and saved for later use or if the entire body is burned and reduced to ash, and then the ash is saved. Either way, the saved remains wind up mixed into molten metal, allowing the revered Orc to become one with a powerful tool or weapon, usually a sword, hammer, or shield ~ Strange Rituals of the Orsimer
I wonder if that is like a holdover, a fetishistic form of a more primordial magick the Orcs once practiced. If we then think on how the Nords view wind and soul, how the Tongues would take the tongues of their enemies and weave enchantments from them, we can see similarities with this.
Regarding the forge itself I am struggling to remember. I have done that quest a couple of times but cannot remember where the Dwemer stuff ended and the Orc stuff began. I recall fighting Orc statues built and powered by the Blood Forge, which hints that this secret was learned from the Dwemer. Indeed, the journals found in that quest and related book indicate it wasn't Orc-built:
The forge itself was breathtaking. I must admit, I had my doubts-these are Orcs, after all-but it is indeed a magnificent sight. I made no mention of it, but it was clear the forge was not created by the Orcs. True, they have done much work on the exterior to conceal its origins. But the inner workings, the meticulous design? There is Dwemer brilliance beneath the Orc stone. Of that, I have no doubts.
That in turn raises deeper connections. After the Dwemer had gone it seems Mephala's spiders claimed it, waiting for their champion:
Her children claimed this place long before us. Perhaps they drove out the godless Dwarves. I see their many eyes as we work, watching and waiting. They do not fear us, I think. They know I walk among my clan, and I am Hers as much as they are. They permit us. Permit me. ~ Skalg's Journal
The relationship between Mephala and the Orsimer is obviously strong. Boethiah and Mephala are often interchangeable in the myths of the Chimer exodus. Some say it was Mephala's teachings which Boethiah spoke, leading to the transformation of Trinimac. Is it possible that this forge was a foreseen event, a thread of the Webspinner's even back then? The Dwemer share many connections with the Orsimer too. Volundrung, a Dwemer weapon became the artifact of Malacath. The Orsimer, iirc, were a tribe of Aldmer so I wonder how many Dwemer were in this tribe, or if they were all Dwemer to begin with.
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/AxiusRevan]KaiserSoSage[/url] said:[/b] An article about mantling that doesn't get me mind-fucked? Joy! Also, yay more Orc mages! So does this mean Ayleid ruins have a connection with blood? Did Thuk (I'm just calling him Thuk if that's okay with you guys.) somehow found a cheatcode that allowed him to control the sanctum?[/blockquote]
An article on mantling, is it? I think that can be done at some point :)
[blockquote][b][url=/profile/Teineeva]Teineeva[/url] said:[/b]
You raise an interesting point concerning the Morkul forge Phil. I haven't played through the quest myself but a quick read of the UESp page for that particular quest tells me this:
a bloodforge – a terrible device that fused living captives into weapons and armor
So this forge fuses a captive into whatever is being forged. Am I the only one to be reminded by another more well known forging procedure? To me this sounds a lot like Daedric smithing where one has to infuse ebony with the blood from a deadra heart in order to bind said daedra's soul to the forged item. Both procedures sound very much like a form of enchanting, where, correct me if I'm wrong, the enchanter binds the soul of the creature or person trapped in the soul gem to the enchanted item. If blood and soul could indeed be interchangeable as you say could this mean orc blood magic can function as some "primal" form of enchanting, bypassing the need for soulgems by transferring the soul via blood?
As to how this could relate to Thukhozod, would it be totally outside the bounds of reality that the original Thukhozod "enchanted" whatever controls the undead in the ruin and bound it to his soul? And then through the transfer of blood binding it to his descendants?
[/blockquote]
That's a great line of thought, Tein. Where enchanting is concerned it really does riff upon a theme. Iirc, when we meet those Morkul Orcs, the Forge-Wife is telling us about how the Orcs use a body part of an ancestor in their forging to lend power to their weapons. Ithink she refers to this, but am not entirely sure:
I finally found an old Orc female who was willing to share some of their death rituals with me. Specifically, she was willing to discuss the practice of "beshkar-nor", the death-forge. Apparently, what happens to the bodies of Orcs of great stature-leaders, heroes, and revered elders-is that they undergo a process known as the death-forge. The old Orc described the process in confusing terms. I'm not sure if the blood is drained from the body and saved for later use or if the entire body is burned and reduced to ash, and then the ash is saved. Either way, the saved remains wind up mixed into molten metal, allowing the revered Orc to become one with a powerful tool or weapon, usually a sword, hammer, or shield ~ Strange Rituals of the Orsimer
I wonder if that is like a holdover, a fetishistic form of a more primordial magick the Orcs once practiced. If we then think on how the Nords view wind and soul, how the Tongues would take the tongues of their enemies and weave enchantments from them, we can see similarities with this.
Regarding the forge itself I am struggling to remember. I have done that quest a couple of times but cannot remember where the Dwemer stuff ended and the Orc stuff began. I recall fighting Orc statues built and powered by the Blood Forge, which hints that this secret was learned from the Dwemer. Indeed, the journals found in that quest and related book indicate it wasn't Orc-built:
The forge itself was breathtaking. I must admit, I had my doubts-these are Orcs, after all-but it is indeed a magnificent sight. I made no mention of it, but it was clear the forge was not created by the Orcs. True, they have done much work on the exterior to conceal its origins. But the inner workings, the meticulous design? There is Dwemer brilliance beneath the Orc stone. Of that, I have no doubts.
That in turn raises deeper connections. After the Dwemer had gone it seems Mephala's spiders claimed it, waiting for their champion:
Her children claimed this place long before us. Perhaps they drove out the godless Dwarves. I see their many eyes as we work, watching and waiting. They do not fear us, I think. They know I walk among my clan, and I am Hers as much as they are. They permit us. Permit me. ~ Skalg's Journal
The relationship between Mephala and the Orsimer is obviously strong. Boethiah and Mephala are often interchangeable in the myths of the Chimer exodus. Some say it was Mephala's teachings which Boethiah spoke, leading to the transformation of Trinimac. Is it possible that this forge was a foreseen event, a thread of the Webspinner's even back then? The Dwemer share many connections with the Orsimer too. Volundrung, a Dwemer weapon became the artifact of Malacath. The Orsimer, iirc, were a tribe of Aldmer so I wonder how many Dwemer were in this tribe, or if they were all Dwemer to begin with.
