Elder Scrolls Lore » Discussions

The Ancient Nordic Pantheon

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  July 26, 2014

  You're preaching to the choir about shoe-horning the Nine into the Animal Totems Tom, as you know from my Faces of Akatosh discussion. However, in this thread we aren't doing anything more than what Imperial scholars always have done, those would have you believe that Alkosh and Akatosh are the same being.

  Even then, is it really too much of a stretch to assume that during the Dragon War the Nords changed from worshipping Alduin and instead had Paarthurnax preaching Akatosh as the Dragon?

  I'm not sure where you get Atmorans as not having agriculture though, nor do I see why whaling would connect with commerce.

  I didn't say they didn't have agriculture, I said when their society moved to being more agriculturally oriented. As it doesn't seem Tsun was Tsun until sometime after the Dragon War, when all gods seem to have been given names, this could coincide with King Harald's time which there seems to be a distinction between warriors and commoners.

  My assertion is that during this time Tsun is changing aspects from a war god to a more agricultural one. I was making an assumption that the Whale - the animal he is associated with - would be hunted by the sea faring Nords and the ivory used for trading.

  You're preaching to the choir about shoe-horning the Nine into the Animal Totems Tom, as you know from my Faces of Akatosh discussion. However, in this thread we aren't doing anything more than what Imperial scholars always have done, those would have you believe that Alkosh and Akatosh are the same being.

  Even then, is it really too much of a stretch to assume that during the Dragon War the Nords changed from worshipping Alduin and instead had Paarthurnax preaching Akatosh as the Dragon?

  I'm not sure where you get Atmorans as not having agriculture though, nor do I see why whaling would connect with commerce.

  I didn't say they didn't have agriculture, I said when their society moved to being more agriculturally oriented. As it doesn't seem Tsun was Tsun until sometime after the Dragon War, when all gods seem to have been given names, this could coincide with King Harald's time which there seems to be a distinction between warriors and commoners.

  My assertion is that during this time Tsun is changing aspects from a war god to a more agricultural one. I was making an assumption that the Whale - the animal he is associated with - would be hunted by the sea faring Nords and the ivory used for trading.

• Tom

  

  Member
   

  July 26, 2014

  However, in this thread we aren't doing anything more than what Imperial scholars always have done...

  I resent this. I only roleplay Nords and Dunmer thank you very much.

  Even then, is it really too much of a stretch to assume that during the Dragon War the Nords changed from worshipping Alduin and instead had Paarthurnax preaching Akatosh as the Dragon?

  I think it is too much of a stretch. We don't know what the true depth and understanding Paarthurnax has with Akatosh, let alone why he'd bother teaching the Nords the finer points if Imperial/Elven pantheon. Why would the Nords take the advice of a dragon immediately after fighting a brutal war with them as a race, about what dragon god they should worship instead?

  I do think the Nordic pantheon was indeed present in Atmora before Ysgramor, since we have Fragmentae Abyssum Hermaeus Morus wherein Ysgramor hunting in Atmora woods is confronted by Herma-Mora and is saved by Shor, who announced himself as such.

  However, in this thread we aren't doing anything more than what Imperial scholars always have done...

  I resent this. I only roleplay Nords and Dunmer thank you very much.

  Even then, is it really too much of a stretch to assume that during the Dragon War the Nords changed from worshipping Alduin and instead had Paarthurnax preaching Akatosh as the Dragon?

  I think it is too much of a stretch. We don't know what the true depth and understanding Paarthurnax has with Akatosh, let alone why he'd bother teaching the Nords the finer points if Imperial/Elven pantheon. Why would the Nords take the advice of a dragon immediately after fighting a brutal war with them as a race, about what dragon god they should worship instead?

  I do think the Nordic pantheon was indeed present in Atmora before Ysgramor, since we have Fragmentae Abyssum Hermaeus Morus wherein Ysgramor hunting in Atmora woods is confronted by Herma-Mora and is saved by Shor, who announced himself as such.

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  July 27, 2014

  The Akatos and Tsun issue aside, you raise a very interesting point. We know Wulfharth's first law was the "fiery reinstatement of the traditional Nordic pantheon" after the Alessian Army's defeat, but when were the gods of this pantheon actually named?

  Thanks for that link, very interesting. Now we have something to back up Varieties of Faith's assertions on Herma-Mora myths. Both Shor and Herma are mentioned, which is ccol. Is it possible that the Dragon Cult put a ban on naming the gods in case they get elevated above the rank of Dragons themselves?

  Are you saying the Traditional Nordic Pantheon could predate the Ancient Nordic Pantheon of the Dragon War?

  The Akatos and Tsun issue aside, you raise a very interesting point. We know Wulfharth's first law was the "fiery reinstatement of the traditional Nordic pantheon" after the Alessian Army's defeat, but when were the gods of this pantheon actually named?

  Thanks for that link, very interesting. Now we have something to back up Varieties of Faith's assertions on Herma-Mora myths. Both Shor and Herma are mentioned, which is ccol. Is it possible that the Dragon Cult put a ban on naming the gods in case they get elevated above the rank of Dragons themselves?

  Are you saying the Traditional Nordic Pantheon could predate the Ancient Nordic Pantheon of the Dragon War?

• Tom

  

  Member
   

  July 27, 2014

  I feel a bit flip-floppity since I keep jumping back and forth in my head on timescales. We're dealing with long tracks of time dating back to before a set in stone dating system and even predating Nords inventing writing, seeing as I recall Ysgramor inventing runes.

  I'm wondering if the animal totems were even a true thing, by which I mean they worshipped actual animals like some Native American beliefs. What if they were a sort of heraldry for the gods or their favored animal? Zeus had eagles, Athena owls, Poseidon horses, Odin ravens, etc.

  That makes more sense to me, so yes the Traditional Nordic Pantheon would predate Ancient Nord panethon of animal worship, if there was such a thing.

  I'm curious too about the Ancient Nord outlook on Alduin and dragons. Why worship a god who quite literally brings forth the end of the world, especially if him and his kin are seen as harbingers of the end times in contemporary nord culture?

  I'm wondering if Alduin wasn't always evil and his forsaking of his purpose in favor of ruling Mundus is what sparked the events leading to the Dragon Wars and the radical shift in Nord views of dragons.

   

  I feel a bit flip-floppity since I keep jumping back and forth in my head on timescales. We're dealing with long tracks of time dating back to before a set in stone dating system and even predating Nords inventing writing, seeing as I recall Ysgramor inventing runes.

  I'm wondering if the animal totems were even a true thing, by which I mean they worshipped actual animals like some Native American beliefs. What if they were a sort of heraldry for the gods or their favored animal? Zeus had eagles, Athena owls, Poseidon horses, Odin ravens, etc.

  That makes more sense to me, so yes the Traditional Nordic Pantheon would predate Ancient Nord panethon of animal worship, if there was such a thing.

  I'm curious too about the Ancient Nord outlook on Alduin and dragons. Why worship a god who quite literally brings forth the end of the world, especially if him and his kin are seen as harbingers of the end times in contemporary nord culture?

  I'm wondering if Alduin wasn't always evil and his forsaking of his purpose in favor of ruling Mundus is what sparked the events leading to the Dragon Wars and the radical shift in Nord views of dragons.

   

• Vazgen

  

  Member
   

  July 27, 2014

  It is possible that Alduin was not worshiped in a traditional sense of that word. The Ancient Nords may have acknowledged his role in pretty much the same way as Altmer acknowledged Lorkhan. 

  It is possible that Alduin was not worshiped in a traditional sense of that word. The Ancient Nords may have acknowledged his role in pretty much the same way as Altmer acknowledged Lorkhan. 

• Tom

  

  Member
   

  July 27, 2014

  Then why worship dragons and allow them and their priests enough power as to rival kings?

  Then why worship dragons and allow them and their priests enough power as to rival kings?

• Vazgen

  

  Member
   

  July 27, 2014

  They probably didn't have a choice. Dragons could've wiped them out easily. In the early stages some Nords probably fought, but to no avail. Others instead started to worship them as gods and survived

  They probably didn't have a choice. Dragons could've wiped them out easily. In the early stages some Nords probably fought, but to no avail. Others instead started to worship them as gods and survived

• Paws

  

  Member
   

  July 30, 2014

  I have updated the OP with brief entries for The Whale and The Hawk. I think The Dragon and The Bear are the next two everyone agrees with, after that we are running into issues.

  Looking at the depictions in the Hall of Stories, maybe we can make a few changes to our god-matching by looking at the genders of the associated character.

  The Moth

  

  The Wolf

  

  I have updated the OP with brief entries for The Whale and The Hawk. I think The Dragon and The Bear are the next two everyone agrees with, after that we are running into issues.

  Looking at the depictions in the Hall of Stories, maybe we can make a few changes to our god-matching by looking at the genders of the associated character.

  The Moth

  

  The Wolf

  

• Tom

  

  Member
   

  July 30, 2014

  Aha! I was right about Dibella being the moth.

  I think this wraps thins up with Kyne as Hawk, Mara as Wolf, and Dibella as Moth. That'd make Jhunal an Owl.

   

  On a different note, but related to this topic, has anyone else noticed some familiarity with Ancient Nord gods and practices of the Old God's worshipped in the Reach? Could Hagravens be a perversion of Kyne reverence, being literally woman and bird combined into one being? Not to forget the practice of removing the hearts of men and replacing it with a briarheart, turning them into undead agents of vengeance. Sounds like Lorkhan/Shor to me.

  Aha! I was right about Dibella being the moth.

  I think this wraps thins up with Kyne as Hawk, Mara as Wolf, and Dibella as Moth. That'd make Jhunal an Owl.

   

  On a different note, but related to this topic, has anyone else noticed some familiarity with Ancient Nord gods and practices of the Old God's worshipped in the Reach? Could Hagravens be a perversion of Kyne reverence, being literally woman and bird combined into one being? Not to forget the practice of removing the hearts of men and replacing it with a briarheart, turning them into undead agents of vengeance. Sounds like Lorkhan/Shor to me.

• Vazgen

  

  Member
   

  July 30, 2014

  What makes you think Mara is not the moth? 

  What makes you think Mara is not the moth?